Devotee: Yesterday at the Srimad Bhagavadtam there was a question given to Jayadvaita Swami and he suggested that we ask you.
Maharaja: Oh okay, clever, we call that “the deflect”.
Devotee: So what are thought about the secular education within Iskon?
Maharaja: Jayadvaita Maharaja, I must say that was well played.
The point is how do you define secular, you know, that’s the main principle, means the modern definition is basically a thousand year old attempt to separate off intellectual development, from the restraints of the Christian church, we’re being very specific here because in the ancient times no other church restricted intellectual development study in science, they were synonymous, means if God created everything that means the study of the creation is also a part of study of God so all up no other religion did not really have a problem with that except Christianity so somehow or another then trying to deal with the element of faith, the approach to applying the intellect didn’t figure for most because why didn’t one take up Christianity was out of faith, there is no but Christian life style there is no philosophy so one would have to just only based on faith have that. So to do that one’s going to actually have to inspire it through faith so it’s not that by speaking the nice philosophy and all that that you have convinced people. It’s just simply you are able to bring about a change in feelings right, so that’s good for I mean if you are looking at it from a principle your taking people from a polytheistic view point and trying to take them to a monotheistic view point then it was very effective, so one cannot fault their aspect of their mythology. The difficulty is that because you are dealing with human beings and human beings means it’s a combination of the body, the mind and the intelligence, consciousness, without addressing all of that which they didn’t and at the present time still having problems with it then because they will always have intellectual class, you will always have a practical class, you will always have an economic class, you will always have all these aspects, arts and all these things, there is no addressing , there are no Christian addressing to intellectual, administration, economics and art or to be celibacy, house holder life and renunciation. They don’t really have, they play with it they come up with something that’s basically is workable, as long as you don’t think about it, so you know if you work with just the sentiment then it will function but if you analyse it, it falls apart very very quickly. So because of this weakness and the inability to be able to once having establish the monotheism to be able to allow the intellectual fields and all the other fields to prosper without direct managerial control then you are going to have a fight that started in like the 1100’s and the 1700’s, then the intellectuals and the state and the economy was able to separate itself because it could not prosper otherwise. So also an necessity because human means dharma, artha, karma, moksha and bhakti but the others can’t prosper so you have to separate them. But that’s only nitty, it’s only practicality, in reality you can’t separate them. So both the churches inability to address them I mean fully scientifically and philosophically and the academics inability to be able to see their secular knowledge it’s only God’s knowledge, it’s only discussion about God there is no such thing as secular it’s an illusion that it exists, both parties are in total ignorance on that platform., you know. So the difficulty comes we think secular, that there is some advantage progressing materially separately from God and by that then materially we will be nicely situated and then yes of course we can connect that to Krsna but the distance between the inception of that thought and the actual practical application is sometimes so great that in the process one completely forgets that that’s one is supposed to do so you can probably say for most devotees when they deal with the concept of secular education though they’ll say how it can be used for Krsna actually never do, that’s just my experience, I may be wrong there might be pockets of devotees here and there in the world that have perfectly harmonise it with Krsna consciousness but I haven’t seen it yet, you know, I haven’t seen it yet. So the difficulty comes is that there is a faith, means it comes from a dualistic concept that God and his creation are different, so another words if it’s secular, it’s not connected with God, so it’s actually an atheistic concept so the point is what’s more important that secular or is the facts and figures of the thing actually important? Right, means you want to learn some geography so is the geography itself on its own stands is important or that it’s not connected to God is important, you understand, so for the academic, which is the person going to authorise your situation within that and ratify yes you are educated, it’s important to him that it’s not connected to God, you connected it to God, they won’t approved it, you know what I’m saying? So in another words if you don’t present an atheistic face, then they won’t buy it and personally, I haven’t seen yet one devotee go into that field and survive and I’m talking about the most intelligent, qualified people in our movement, I have not seen one of them, again may be consider too absolute but I have not seen and I have dealt with the top guys, they become affected, they take on the atheistic mentality you quote something from sastra, they’ll say “well that’s not scientific”; That’s atheism “that’s not scientific, that’s not being intellectual, that’s not being … what’s their favourite word, you have …?
Devotee: Intellectual integrity?
Maharaja: Intellectual integrity, and that there’s the other thing of being … it’s starts with an O, the one that starts with an S that’s the bad one and the one that starts with an O is considered to be very good?
Devotee: Objective…
Maharaja: Objectivity yes and subjectivity they’ll say “oh well that’s subjective, it’s not objective” though their objectivity is the absolute and total subjectivity of their mentor, it’s an absolute hierocracy from top to bottom, as far as actual intellectual, they’re using their brains to extremely out smart people, like that, but their philosophy is totally bogus. So we have to be able to see is that what do mean by this because we bantered around as if it’s some normal thing like you know everyone has to breath and pass stool or something you know but the point is secular means that it has nothing to do with God so if you are able to take that body of knowledge and actually connect it, I don’t mean by talk, everybody talks but I mean in reality, it won’t smell secular anymore, but that also doesn’t happen, you know what I’m saying, the point is if it’s actually valuable in Krsna consciousness then we should be able to apply it in a very Krsna conscious way, therefore one learns language or one learns these different things, Prabhupada said that, learn language, learn maths, learn geography, all these different little things and they are useful but their only usefulness if it’s in connection to Krsna and getting a job to be able to maintain your family so far we haven’t mentioned anything about Krsna and that’s all that comes out of devotees’ mouths. Why do you have to have the degree? “Oh because you have to take care of yourself in the future, we have to be practical, we have to make money, we have to take care of our family”; have you heard one word of Krsna yet? No and they can continue for another five minutes and never mention Krsna, that’s the problem; Because their view of it is actually secular, which is atheistic so the problem with the secular is it’s born from atheism and those who deal with it, take on that mood. But the point is that the subject matter is that is discussing is not secular and is not atheistic it’s just an approach to it that what I can observe with the senses is fact and what’s not observable by the senses is not fact but the problem is that human beings are more than animals. So the difficulty comes is the secular education means animal knowledge so it’s going to give animal results and you can see it, it doesn’t work that great, as far as consciousness and character and culture that are being discussed here by Maharaja Pritha. He is very educated but he doesn’t take on that educated flavour, that’s the difficulty with it. It’s the flavour it takes up. As we mentioned before, there is no such thing as knowledge separate from God so as we say “Oh it separate knowledge”, no it’s not, language, how it works? It only works because, the concept it has nouns and verbs, where does that come from, that comes from Sanskrit, that comes from God so the point is you are trying express a mood through the environment, right, if I want to express a mood, I will say something but I have to refer to the environment so I have to deal facts, I have to deal with nouns. That’s the way God created it so there’s no such thing as language is separate from God. The only difference is our mentality; we can see it as separate so the point is we don’t have a problem studying what would be classified in the modern usage as secular knowledge. We have a problem that the mentality that the devotees do study is actually secular which means atheistic. They may say ultimately it’s for Krsna but good try, I haven’t seen it hardly. So you know I’m saying a little bit will be there, you know, the family will end up at the temple, they do chant their rounds, they offer their Prasad, these are all major, major things but as far as volume of their life style, by bulk, it’s very minor. And so all those bulk of things because they the secular, they aren’t able to see their connection to Krsna. The same study makes them unable to actually see the connection to Krsna. Yes …
Devotee: So what’s your answer to the concern that people say that if you send your kids to Gurukula, when they get out of Gurukula, what are going to do when you get back to Ohio? How do we prepare for that?
Maharaja: Not wanting to be ignorant here but are there actually people in Ohio?
Another devotee: Secular people.
Maharaja: Huh? Secular people, okay. Really? Ohio? Wow. Okay if you said New York or something, then I can relate to but Ohio? Okay so the point is why, what do they want to do when they get to Ohio? You know what I’m saying, when you say what are they going to do what does not mean? What are they going to do, what’s the meaning?
Devotee: You have to make money.
Maharaja: So it’s simply an economic consideration?
Devotee: Yes.
Maharaja: So the only consideration is artha, so dharma, karma, moksha, bhakti … four out of five they don’t care about, it’s only the economics so that’s my point so if that’s all the secular does, okay but what about the full education? And secular education doesn’t deal with the other four, it doesn’t it has no capacity. That’s the point, so therefore if you are going to run human life on one artha and that one happened to be just artha, then all you have is ethics which means how to practically get something done, justice when it doesn’t go the way you like it to go and economics but engaging your senses, actually having substantial relationships with people, being able to understanding that the only way things function is by sacrifice, it’s not all about you and that ultimate sacrifice is for Krsna. That they will never have so the point is yes they will go to Ohio, they’ll get their job and when they die then they can be born in Ohio again. But the difficulty is that what about the other four? The problem is not okay you need some certain knowledge to be able to function in the world, that’s not actually the discussion, the discussion is why would any devotee ever think that if you have that, that’s enough of an education? That’s the scary part because the point is you may get a job okay that’s important but the things is once you have the job, it only makes money to create a situation, they won’t know how to live as a human being in that situation so they can’t engage their senses, right, so that means they don’t know what to eat, how to eat, how to dress, how to interact. They can’t even have intimate relationships between husband and wife, they don’t know anything, their marriage falls apart, their kids run off, so they did all that now can you tell me that’s successful? If I invested in a tone of money in something that flopped, would I say that’s a good investment? So now look around, look around at the marriages, the families, look around and tell me, so was the secular education that valuable? If we are just being practical here, because I know the question here comes from “we are just being practical here so we’re just turning it to practical is it actually getting it what you want? Do we have these bodies of satisfied devotees who have gone through the household life with their facilities and all that now we are retiring and are dedicating their lives to Krsna consciousness because they have understood there is nothing in the material world of any value? But they are expert at dealing with it so they have no problem being situated within it but they don’t have any value for it as such separate from … do we have a great body for such persons? Right that should be called the big varna-prasta ashrama that’s giving such nice direction to the grahastas; it’s nothing happening, why? Because they are secular educated, they don’t know how to act like human beings they only know how to make money and pay the bills and beyond paying the bills they don’t know how to interact with themselves, with others, with their families, with their friends and therefore they don’t have much. But because we don’t have much, we call that the great society. But if it was so great, why did they join in the first place, because it wasn’t great. Why have people been rebelling against it since time immemorial? Dhyajani live in a barrel in the Greek times because it wasn’t great, right, the hippies they rebelled because it wasn’t great. And now I got to hear from a hippy that you know, I got to get a secular education and make it in the main stream, that’s like, that’s called a hypocrite. Yes …
Another Devotee: Maharaja, in the living entity, as an eternal need for actual having relationships as you classify bits and pieces in the spiritual world with the supreme beings also having seniors, juniors and equals that he relates to eternally. This comes down in the purports also that human beings are expressed, they have these relationships or at least the need to practice about relationships … meaning these applications towards respecting seniors, juniors, equality … receive service… this also happens in the material world and the material person … what is the percentage
Maharaja: Means in the material world, we will put more emphasis on the senior towards junior because then there is that element of conditioning of I am in control, because controller and enjoyer, because when you control, you can enjoy. What’s not understood is that the controlled enjoys more than the controller, that’s where we made the mistake, we see Krsna is in control, he is enjoying but we see but we miss the point because we don’t have the association of the internal associates is that those who are controlled enjoys more than the controller right, the parent is controlling the child but he’s always worried, don’t go there, don’t do this, we have to get something to eat, where are we going to stay, so there is a taste in taking care and that protection, like that but the child is completely being taken care off, their taste is even greater, like that so we missed that but comes from association because that’s only tasted by those who are surrendered, right and if someone is looking at Krsna’s energy from the view point to enjoy it, one won’t get the association of those who are not trying to enjoy it. So technically speaking that’s our weakness is we have no actual understanding, you know, means, the jiva is in the material phenomenon. We don’t actually have a good understanding of what it means to be completely surrendered, it’s a new concept, you know. We want people to surrender to us and when we are in the position of junior, you know when the guy comes in with his hordes and he takes over and makes us into his slaves, you can say in the material platform, basically absolutely surrendered but no one likes it, they’re not feeling surrendered right, because they want to be controlled. So the difficulty is that concept allude us but that’s where the sweetness is, so that’s why it seems strange, why would God want to be in the junior position where you know Nanda Maharaja is telling him “Go bring my shoes” right and he’s so small he has trouble of bringing it but it’s that cuteness of that attempt or the elder Gopis are telling him to dance and clapping his hands and his dancing for them so that taste, that’s why Krsna comes as Caintanya Mahaprabhu, so someone in the masculine position can’t taste it. So being Purusha he can’t actually taste it so he has to come as Prakrii, but he’s not going to comes as any Prakriti, he’s going to come as the suru Shakti, his total potency and so then he’ll be able to get the total taste of surrendered Krsna. So therefore only Radharani taste that in the totality so he takes on that mood. That’s why it’s very special in what’s been given because in Vaikunta there still the idea “I will enjoy” it’s spiritual “I’ll be on the same planet or I’ll be an associate or I’ll have the same opulence or the same form but Radhrani, there is no consideration of any of that. There is nothing to gain for herself except for Krsna’s pleasure so that absolute total surrender that’s why Krsna comes and that’s what he’s going to give so all those who follow on that line, the can actually taste the same mood, according to capacity. But it doesn’t matter, if we are infinite, it does take much to fill us up so we’ll be happy. So Radharani, unlimited, but she’s tasting unlimitedly but if we connect to the unlimited then we basically have a view, a glimpse of that unlimited which is way beyond our minuteness, so it’s great. It’s only through association that, that is gained and it’s only through association that it gets tasted. Another words the situation is association and the operation is interaction and so therefore in that association it will be tasted. So for Krsna it’s all about being with the devotees.
Devotee: So is it proper to say that the devotee should endeavour to maintain all three levels for this ideal relationship?
Maharaja: Should a devotee maintain all three levels? Yes you have to because it actually starts with the senior because the point is God is senior, Radharani is senior and everybody is expanding from them are senior to us because it’s all Vishnu Tattva, all internal potency, right, so we are jivas so we’re the junior and within jivas, there are those who are in the senior position so this idea of being able to accept authority is essential. If one has authority issues, it’s natural because the material world is based on authority, its starts off with that, I want to be the controller and the enjoyer. Another words, the more materialistic the persons are then, especially within the modern sense then there are more authority issues. The more religious based, then the less there is that aspect of issues. So the more we separate it, the more we secularise it, then the authority issue comes up because you can only be successful if you are the controller, right, otherwise you can’t be the enjoyer, so if you are committed to being the supreme enjoyer, the you have to be committed to be the supreme controller. So that means no one else can be in control but some make it very obvious, you know, a dictator, they make it very obvious that no one else is in control but the age of enlightenment made it that you do all the nasty things that everybody did before but you say it really nicely, that’s all. You use really nice terms for it so no one notices it but you are just as bad as them. So another words, the politically correct person, they are actually speaking pure McKuvelly philosophy but they are not as blunt and direct as McKuvelly. They just use really nice terminology but the effect is exactly the same. The point is one would have such things, that’s normal, no one should complain about it but it has to be at least intellectually appreciated, it has to be endeavoured to be given up because we are always going to be surrounded by seniors. Now that creates a very deep inspiring place but the liveliness of inspiration comes from dealing with equals because they are exactly equals so that element of that shillary creates that spunkiness, it creates some liveliness that won’t come from the senior. The senior is more sober and everything like that. And then junior, that will also create all good qualities. If you get good qualities from the senior then that you will also get good qualities from the junior. But there is then, that kindness and all that will be the prominence where the other is the surrender but with the equal then you don’t have those two, surrender or kindness isn’t the prominence. And so it has another flavour and so cultivating all three will make for a balance person.
Devotee: So this is where the journey of varna-ashrama comes?
Maharaja: Yeh, varna-ashrama starts with acceptance of authority, it’s the first point to be made, God, his position, the creation, Brahman, varna-ashrama, his position, sastras, Brahmans, seniors. Before he even discusses anything about Varna-ashrama, he’s already established all that, because it’s his first point. Because only with authority, you can only know how to deal with authority with equals and juniors, otherwise what do you learn? So that’s the difficulty, in the modern society that doesn’t accept authority so therefore they don’t learn how to deal with others. So the common ground is that everyone wants to be the Lord and enjoy so that means you want to control, so you have to have facilities to control so therefore economics becomes the common basis of the materialistic modern person because it’s the only platform where you won’t have disagreement. Making money, everyone will agree is good, how I will enjoy my senses, somebody will say that’s good or not. Dharma, everybody has their different things, liberation, that’s too scary. So economics is the common ground that you can pull in, it has that little, it has that scope for little sense gratification but that slight bit of renunciation that you are carrying for others sense gratification so it appears to be an ideal position.
Devotee: Is it right to say that Varna-ashrama starts at home?
Maharaja: Is it right to say that Varna-ashrama starts at home? Am, means for the practice of the individual, yes but for the training, it starts at school.
Devotee: The home of the Guru.
Maharaja: The home of the Guru, right, yeh, you could say the home of the Guru, that’s Gurukula. That’s where you’ll actually learn to be a human then that’s when you can apply your occupation because we have to remember that making money is only Varna. Ashrama is the big problem, Varna is a skill, you can go to night school, you can do this, you can do that, and you can catch it. Because if you look at it, most people in the world, the degree that they have has got nothing to do with the job they have … for most people. When they see that then they can go and make arrangements to try to get some other skills and that’s why the world has made a lot of facilities for that. On line education and night education and you know all these things, you can study during the summer so many things are there but the point is that’s only Varna. That only creates facilities, ashrama is what you do with the facilities, there is zero facilities on that … zero, I mean zero. That’s rasa so the thing is we add a sastra class to the secular education, that’s good but still the point is where is the lifestyle? So we’ve added knowledge but we haven’t added the lifestyle because from sravana then there must be manana. Manana means contemplation and practice. So all we do is sravana and from sravana we apply it economically but we don’t get spiritual benefits from it that’s why devotees most of the time can’t connect their occupation directly to devotional service other than giving the money which is good but they see the philosophy in their occupation because the concept of practical application has never been part of their education. Practically applied means it make money just like you are sitting there talking something, you are doing something devotion, you’re really good. I’ve heard many times, the person does ... let’s say you make really excellent vases and all this and it’s really special and someone comes up “Wow you can make a business out of this” you know so many devotees are expert at their devotional field somebody can go “Wow you can do this in devotional service”. But very rare you’re doing something and that “Hey you can do this for Krsna”. You know what I’m saying? It’s only because the conditioning, that’s the problem with the secular education. When you go back in time, is that, the education, the lifestyle, the philosophy they were all part of the same course. Means you studied the philosophy and the practical education together, right, they were part of the same curriculum and you followed the lifestyle because if you have a look at all the old educational system they all had to study under a Teacher. It wasn’t just a you know state thing, impersonal. When the state becomes supreme, then you don’t have a person so therefore your leadership then is committed to the state, which is supreme. So they are not actually, technically leaders that way. You’re economics is for that, your safety is for that, everything is for the state so economic is also for that, education is for that. So it just comes along with the same enlightenment style of governance where then the state becomes the supreme entity rather than the individuals of the state.
Devotee: In our society, sometime in the future, it should be implemented that educations to be built as Gurukulas …
Maharaja: Means the point is that Gurukula means the home of the teacher so it has to be that what the teacher is teaching is more than just the academics but it’s the lifestyle that they’re leading. You know what I’m saying? That has to be gotten across because otherwise then what’s the standard. Community is based on common standards of social interactions, but if you don’t have common standards, you don’t have community, right. Means we can call our communities communities because everyone wants to serve Krsna but on the material platform, there’s no way you can call them communities because what you would eat, how would they live, their desires for their children, how they would discipline their children, how they would interact with their children, how they would educate their children, you know how they would interact as husband and wife, how they would relate to the community, it’s all different, you could get two or three people together within a community, you can say that you have small groups of two, three, four people you know, the facility of community gives opportunity that you can find two, three or four other people and similar like you and therefore create miniature communities within a larger overall arching thing of devotional community. But as far as a social community, it’s not actually one.
Devotee: So it’s basically it’s the change of consciousness.
Maharaja: Yes, it’s the change of consciousness, you don’t change the consciousness, then you have a whole lot of people have different consciousness, how will they relate with each other? So the idea when we say Krsna consciousness that means or say self-realisation, the atma, we mean, the body, mind, the consciousness, devotees will all have the same consciousness but when it comes to the body, the mind and the intelligence, that will be greatly different according to their actual conditioning. And goes right back to their conditioning not say well you know “we’re not the body prabhu” and that but they will act exactly like someone from the particular social status coming from the country where they grew up. That’s not changed, like that, so the point is if you want to connect those there has to be a broader education. Does that make sense? You know in other words what I’m trying to here is avoid the external concept of the form and understand the principle of what the educational basis is. Does that make sense? Because otherwise then will have the same problem that someone will follow either the Vedic or modern and you’ll end up with smart ones or arm chair speculators so like that. So we want to avoid that. Okay so we’ll end here.
