Deity Worship Seminar

Deity Worship Seminar

by His Holiness Bhakti Vidya Purna Swami

Mayapur , January ‘97

1 part: The Theory and Theology of the Deity Worship

"All conected with the philosophy, what we are doing and why we are doing it?"

The basic philosophy behind; origin of the vaisnava culture and etiquette.

Day One. Tape One.

The Root.

All the rules and reg. are there simply for two points: ALWAYS REMEMBER KRSNA AND NEVER FORGET HIM, from that expands everything. So in this process to always remember Krsna and never forget, then for the liberated souls that becomes very easy, because he is not contaminated. He may not know about Krsna, he may not have affection for Krsna, but because there is no bodily contamination, one is on the brahma-bhuta platform. When one comes in contact with Krsna,  then one becomes immediately atracted to Krsna. Just we see the four Kumaras. They were on the brahma-bhuta platform. They were  impersonalists. They were not mayavadis. Impersonalists means they just understand brahman. So they understand the first stage of God realisation, while the mayavadi he doesn't understand any stage. That's why they are called mayavadi, maya-vadi, because they profess maya. Though it's cloak in spiritualism, but there is a difference.  The one on the brahma bhuta platform he understand 100% that he is the soul and he is not the body and he has no attachments to the body or anything material. He is only attached to the spirit, but he doesn't know the Supreme Spirit.

So for someone like this, basically you just have to give them the activities: sravanam kirtanam visnu smaranam and their advance. But for someone who is conditioned, means someone who is not on the brahma bhuta platform, who has some conditioning of the body, the mind, the inteligence and the ego, then the difficulty comes is that, even you engage in the devotional service - just to sit down, you can't sit down and chant the whole day. So in the brahma bhuta platform you just sit and chant whole day. So you can't just do that. There must be more things in your life. So you have to have a full variety of the activities that engage all the senses. So this then becomes all the different body of the rules that there is. So these different rules are simply for this to simply remember and not forget, but because we are conditioned the tendency is that we forget. We tend to forget. We sees some sense goes somewhere and we forget about anything else. So the whole idea is this: how to regulate the senses, to bring them into line.

So Krsna then mentions in the 11.th canto of SB that He has given the rules and regulations on every aspect of life, so that one has some standart, some guidaline, to go by and some regulations so that the senses can be engaged in every moment in some way, in some regulated fashion, because this regulated fashion of engaging the senses means that we will tend to stay away from sinful activities. Otherwise if  we don't engage all these senses the tendency is to get involved in the sinful activities. So that is the purpose of the rules. So these rules then come to us in so many ways. The vedic literature then have all the different rules and regulations written down. Then from that, to make it practical, then the different sages, in their discussions, conversations, in their activities then they have made it more practical for us. So from the scriptures then the sages made so many other things, taking form the Vedic literature, then they documented the activities and the culture and the reasons of following all these things into systems and this is called agama. Agama means that which come from something. Agama means that it coming from the Vedic scriptures. There are different kinds of agamas, different varieties. The main ones are as follows. One system of worship is based purely on the Vedic mantras that's callled vaikanasa. Vaikanasa means that everything that they do will be done with the Vedic mantras. Like that. Offerings things, purifying anything whatever they doing will be done with the Vedic mantras. Problem with this system is that it works by you are born in the particular family, that practises vaikanas then you are qualaified to do it. The whole idea is that, if you perform your duties nicely within the varnasrama system, then you come to the point, then you will be born into one of these families and then you can go further and become transcendental to that whole system. So unless you are born in that family then there is no chance. So this is practiced very strongly up to the dvaparayuga and it is also coming up to the kaliyuga. I think even up today.

At the time of Ramanuja many of the temples where vaikanas. Then the other system is called tantra. There is five kinds of tantra, with the five deities:  Visnu, Sun, Ganes, Siva and Durga. Tantra basicaly means ritual. So it's specificaly and mostly based on bija syllabus and bija mantras and they would use a lot of mudras and other things. Another thing is, it's a highly condensed, a kind of aspect, becausea Vedic mantra takes a long time to chant. So here they would just use bija syllabus and mula mantras just to establish something and do, but the ritual would be more prominent. In the Vedic system the mantra is more prominentand the ritual is actualy very simple. While in the tantric system the mantras are very simple, but the ritual is very complicated, therefore it's called tantra, because the ritual becomes most prominent out of it. Then the difficulty in this is that many of the tantric systems also have the same rules of being born in the special families. So that makes it a very difficult for a broad amount of people to become expert, I mean to become benefited by the system. So then after this was develop, what was known as pancaratrika system, which is then a mix of the vaikanas and the tantras. Pancaratrik uses both the vedic mantras and the tantric and it's rituals are more balanced, they are not overly complex nor overly simple. So that's the system which was propagated by Narada Muni. There is a 108 pancaratras and one of them is the Narada Pancaratra which is the discussion between Lord Siva and Narada Muni and it specificaly discuss the worship of Radha-Krsna. That's the one pancartara called Narada. Due to the dissolution of the different parts of the universe on the end of each yuga cycles and also on the end of the Manu period and finaly on the end of the day of Brahma, pancaratra get lost. Then it gets reintroduce by Narada Muni.

So sometimes the whole Pancaratric system is called Narada Pancaratra, because it's comming from him. So you will hear both, sometimes you may hear both ways. So the pancaratric system is valuable in any time you doing perform worship, practised in the dvapara yuga. But it's especialy meant, from all the systems of worship  for kaliyuga in connection with sankirtan movement, because the pancaratra gives the social form to the sankirtan mission. It gives the system of worship and rituals, the whole social interaction, everything will come from this. So this means you have bhagavata marg, which is purely just chanting Hare Krsna and preaching the Krsna consciousness and basicaly we are looking at it as there are no rituals. It's not required. You just chant and that's enough. But that means you are just chanting. Some prasadam comes then you eat, no prasadam comes you don't eat. If you are tired and you remember, you might sleep and if you are too busy you might forget to sleep. So this is the bhagavata marg. There is basicaly no rules and regulations there, because someone who can follow that has to be on the brahma bhuta platform. So there is no real meaning. They chant and the holy name reveals everything. Then for those who are conditioned then the pancaratrika system gives that form in which all the senses can be engaged in the Lord service. So it gives direction on every aspect of live. So then one may thing. All right pancaratrik system is there, but that's the deity worship. You have a few pujaris in the temple and they make a few offerings, burn some insense, put a few cloth on and off the deities.

All right, so what does it have to do with me. I am common devotee or I am sankirtan devotee. So this is now where the pancaratrik system can be seen to be outstanding. Because pancaratrik system as we said that's the deity worship, that's the brahmans, but in the concept of  sankirtan mission in its pure form is based on the culture we see is practised in the daivi varnasrama system. Daivi varnasrama means that every body is brahman. That's the different concept. (drawing the table on the black board). In the ordinary varnasrama system the sudra in his consciousnes and activities is lover then the vaisya, who is lover then the ksatriya, who is lover then the brahmana, because by nature their  mentality is different. The level of consciousnes. The sudra will be on the platform of anamoy, where he is basicaly engaging his senses in an activity. In the music, in the carpentery and whatever is his art for, driving the track or whatever he is doing. He is simply engaging his senses. He may be using his mind and intelligence but it's focused simply on the senses. So that's the sphere of his activities. So that afects the consciousnes, so they will have propensity to be more selfish, senses will place stronger part in their life. So we see generaly they don't follow the asrams. They are just grihastas. They mey be even unmarried, but they live in their house they grow up there and they get married and die in that house, everything. Then higher then that is the vaisya. Their are on the platform of pranamoy. Pranamoy means extended senses. So to do that to cooperate together in sense gratification you start to have the lover levels of social forms. You have economics, morality, justice.. all these things, because otherwise you can’t work. That’s I have my land you have your land. We put a fence. Now what is the rule for this. Fence goes on my land or exactly in the middle. So all these different things. System of economics. All the different things how you trade. The system of justice.

You know, he stole my cabbages and we want some retributions for this. So it all develop from that system.  Morality. You see that they are very much into morality. That’s the strongest point for them. They consider that’s sounds moral - that’s the top. Just like now you see in the capitalist societies. When someone is moral that’s considered really good. Religious is OK, but moral. This is the main thing.

If there is any problem in morality, then ‘oh! this is very bad.’ You are religious or not religious, that they don’t care. You just have to be moral. That’s all. Because thene we can work together. You know, I can trust. I wan’t be cheated. Like that. This become very strong. Religions of this also work very well with this in the capitalistic set up. Because morality is preached most strongly in these religions.  Then the next above that the ksatriyas. Ksatriyas are on the  platform of the manamoy, or Prabhupada would call it jnanamoy. So jnanamoy means the platform of the mind. This comes into here a full social structure, social interaction. The lower level you have just rules so that you can commonly work together. All drive on the left side of the street you drive on the right side. Rules like that. But now this is social order. How does everything work together. How you organize things.  So the varnasrama system is the topmost manifestation of that. So we see that the ksatriyas are in the charge of maintaining the social divisions, peace, the working order and all this. This will also include, now you are religious, so religiosity comes in. Being pious. It’s not enough to just be good, that you don’t  give me any troubles or you are nice like that. But you actually perform pious activities, the rituals that go with it. So the rituals then is manifested on this platform. Other than social rituals, how you shake your hand and like that. So but this will be your actual rituals of the satvik life. So the ksatriyas, you may see, their main thing is the religiosity and he is maintaining this kind of things. Morality is there, but for them higher the that is the maintaining religious principle. So they give their word their duty and things like that.

Then above that then the next platform is the platform of vijnanamoy. The platform where we understand brahman, we are not the body. You have the knowledge. The sastric side of it and the endeavour in this way. So the brahmins were engaged, that’s why they are called brahmans, because they know brahman. So because of this, you have these four, the consciousness of each is lower than the other. So therefore brahmana is better then the ksatriya - is better then the vavisya - is better then sudra. So this is ordinary varnasrama. Or in technical term asuric varnasrama, means that it can be followed by everybody. Means you have your devas and the asuras. Asuras also follows vedic culture. When we see pictures of Hiranyakasipu or Ravana they are wearing the dhotis. They do sit on the floor and eat with their fingers. They eat rice and subjis. They don’t wear jeans or ride on Harleys or in BMW. You see they follow the vedic culture. But the difference is they are not interested in GOD. They like the culture, just leave out God. Because the culture is the most efficient, the best. So the difference is,.. The asuric varnasrama you follow the vedic culture, you follow all the rules of the vedic literatures, but you just don’t accept that the purpose of it is to remember the Lord and not forget. So it’s set up like this. So we ssee when we hear at the time of Lord Ramacandra or at the time of  the Pandavas, even at the time of Lord Caitanya, they were following the asuric varnasram. Because they would be dealing with the broad range of people.

Like you have Duryodhana and then you have the Pandavas.  So they have to work together. You have Lord Rama and you have Ravana. So they are all living together and they all have to interact. So the common point of interactio is the vedic culture. Then within that the asuras they are not remembering the Lord but the devotees remember the Lord, but the externals look exactly the same. Now we come into daivi varnasrama. So now brahmans Prabhupada explains there is three levels of brahmanas. First is the dvija. So the dvija means he is twice born. He is now initiated by the sacred thread ceremony. So just because you have been initiated today doesn’t  make you qualified. Means you have the potential. Just like the girl  is married. Today she is married. So that doesn’t mean that now she has a child. No. That would take time. Like that. But now she is qualified t have one. So in the same way dvija means now he is qualified to study the vedas and learn knowledge. Study under the teacher. So then, but he doesn’t know anything. So after studying for so many years, like 12 years or whatever is the course then they come to the platform of vipra. Means now they know something. They are expert in field. There are many fields of vedic knowledge. They know the knowledge. Then having that knowledge, using this knowledge and if they get the right association, means the association of the devotee, then they come to the platform where they realize the purpose of this knowledge, then they understand that all this knowledge is only to remember Lord and not forget Him. So this comes sto the platform of the vaisnava. So the vaisnava is the topmost platform of the brahmana. So now daivi varnasrama is meant for vaisnavas and it can only  be practised in the culture of vaisnavas, because the difference between the daivic and asuric is the consciousness only. Otherwise externally they look the same. All right. Ravana is wearing the dhoti, Rama is wearing the dhoti. Ravana does his acamans chants his mantras and shoots his astras and Rama does the same  things. So everything works the same. But the difference is the consciousness, wheter you are doing it for the Lord.

Vaisnava is doing everything for the Lord and someone who is in the ordinary varnasrama doesn’t necessary have to be. They may be religious or they may even be devotional, but it’s secondary. Distinction is made. Like Arjuna. When Karna comes into the arena after Arjuna. Dronacarya after teaching the Pandavas, then he made a big arena and the stage show, so all of the …… and then he shows his prowess with the weaponing with the astras. You know you shoot and make a mountains,  otherone shoot and made a rain or wind or this and that. So all these special weapons they had. So then everybody was completely amazed what Arjuna has just done.  Then after showing all that, then onto the field comes another person. Who looks very effulgent and very powerful a kind of ksatriya mood. Comes riding out and says that’s his tricks. I can do all of  that also. All right then do. Talk is cheap. Then he did everything the same as Arjuna did. But then Arjuna said alright who are you. Then when he explained it was found that he is the son of a chariot driver. So then he says, that may be, but we can’t accept, because you are not from ksatriya families. You are not from royal families. So Duryodhana seeing this he thought. Here is somebody who can beat Arjuna and he was from the beginning always thinking how to destroy the Pandavas. So then he went up to him and offered half of his kingdom, put a crown on him, bath him right there and said he has a half of the kingdom so now he is ksatriya. So whole point is that Pandavas, even though in their consciousness they were following daivi varnasrama externaly, we see they were just following ordinary varnasrama. Also at the time of Lord Caitanya thay would follow all these rules.

So there is restrictons. Brahmana can only do this and can not do that. Ksatriya can only do this and can not do that. So the vaisya. So each one has their things they can do exclusively and none else can do. So in that way everybody keeps their place. Because of  the mentality. If in consciousness anamoy, you try to teach the scriptures, it will just don’t work. Or vaisya. Like now, so many schools are run by the vaisyas. I know one devotee he is from big business family and one of the brothers, his business is running the school. It’s not that he is interested in education wants to see that the children are being trained so nicely or this and that. He just knows that’s the good business. He opens the school. There is less schools then the students, so if you want to have your kid in the school you have to pay money. So just to get their kid in the school they may pay a lak of rupees. So you have a school with two thousand students that’s two thousand laks. So 20 crores is nearly 5.500.000U$ and that’s just to get them in the school. Then you have to pay this fee and that fee. So then they have a whole  system. Teachers teach in the morning and also in the evening. Then you have uniform cost and this cost and that cost, so that makes a big box. So he is vaisya and he is doing that only for business. He will keep the good standart in the  school in order so that people will keep their kids in the school and he will keep to get their money.

So you can do that in modern eduction, but in the vedic education it’s a disaster. It’s a disaster in modern also, because kids don’t get any proper association. But this is why vaisyas couldn’t get into education, because it was meant only for brahmanas, because money wasn’t involved. Vaisya will manage, but only to make money. India was conquered by business company. The East India Company wasn’t a bunch of conquerers, who were ksatriyas, who went out and fight. No, it was a bunch of businessman.  They came here and brought a bunch of guns and kanons and defeated people and set up their business. That’s what it was and then when they got too much outrages, because being vaisyas rather then ksatriyas, they couldn’t protect the people, they exploit them to such a degree that there was big big revolts and that time then they transfer over to  the crown. At that time the viceroy was sent from the England and the business was nationalized.  Running India as a business was nationalized by English government. So it came under the queen or the king at that time. So therefore they were allowed to do this. Nowadays you get your big big musicians, rock musicians, very powerful,  country musicians. So they all have their philosophy and they all put it in their words and songs and profess their philosophy and that. But because they are just interested in sense gratification, they teach sense gratification, they live sense gratification, so it differ the mind.

So they can’t do these things. They don’t teach philosophy they don’t set the standard. No, there was already a standard.  You had already the words of songs, songs were written  by those who were philosophical, they were written by the acaryas or big pandits. And people sang, you didn’t sing just anything you like, you sang it in the particular way. Certain song was on a certain pastime of the Lord. It has its particular mood. So it has its particular raga and all this. They knew how to sing but what they would sing, they stile of singing was given to them by the sastra. So they could teach how to use their voice, but they couldn’t teach the sastric parts of it. That they would learn from the brahmanas. Singing guru might be a sudra, but who tought them the musisc grammar, music theory that was learned from the brahmanas.  So like this. Then we can see  that, this is why in the ordinary varnasrama system it is not mixed. Because, there is a difference in the consciousness, therefore it is not interchangeable. You can’t even change it. It will just not work.  Can’t do it. Therefore each one had their own culture. They would stay in their own mentalities. They would follow their rituals differently, all their values would be different. So many things would be different, but they interacted very nicely. So now the concept is that in the daivi varnasrama because everyone there is the vaisnava, that means he is the realized brahmana, so the culture for everyone is brahminical culture. And the values and everything is brahminical, the standard is brahminical, lie style is brahminical, eating habits is brahminical, everything is brahminical.

Difference comes in that in the daivi varnasrama the activities are interchangeable. Because you have exactly the same consciousness. Then in this then according to  ones conditioned nature one can do any of the four or  any of the mixture of the four and there eis no problem. Typical example that always comes to my mind is. There was one devotee in the early seventies in New Vrindavan. Then he use to drive the tractor plowing the fields 12 hours a day. That was his service, but every day without fail, he would get up before mangala aratik, chant all his rounds before mangala aratik and dress Radharani every day. I am not sure that he didn’t do the night dressing and put them to rest. I can’t confirmed, but I was told that, he would read Caitanya Caritamrita incessantly. He knew all the stories, everything. Whenever you talk to him he never talk prajalpa, he was always just Caitanya Lila. That’s it. He never talk anything else. So this is daivi varnasrama. He’s plowing the fields and we see he is first class pujari, first class brahmana. So it doesn’t matter, what one does. Because the point is this. He is plowing the fields for Krishna, he is dressing the deities for Krishna, he is studying the books for Krishna. Everything is being done for Krishna. Because being even the brahmana is not enough, because if it is not done for Krishna, you know sanskrit grammar so much, you know astronomy astrology, you know the worship, but if it is not done for Krishna it has no meaning.

So daivi varnasrama means those who understand that their business is to serve the Lord and whatever they do is for him, for His pleasure. Means in actuality, not just lips service, means that what is for. So when one makes money that money is for Krishna. He manages it’s for Krishna. He does worship or studies knowledge is for Krishna, not for himself. You can’t leave your service, give up everything go off  and just study. Go to Varanasi for 12 years learn grammar. That’s not daivi varnasrama. That will be ordinary varnasrama. Because knowledge is more important then devotional service. You may do service. Chant your rounds…, but association will be not .. You understand the subtleties. It is a very subtle thing, because it will look exactly the same on the outside. Symptoms are there by the mood, but externally it will look exactly the same, but it’s the mood there that makes the difference. So if one can understand this then it makes the understanding of the application of the pancaratik system very easy. That’s why we are getting into this discussion. So it’s all interchangeable, because it’s all brahminical culture. As I mentioned there is different standard of living for a brahmana, a ksatriya, a vaisya and sudra. So the pancaratrik system  then is the system of the worship of the Deity. Now in worshipping the Deity it’s not that you just walk in and you just purl some insence and you walk out. It’s a whole consciousness, the whole culture is there. So everything is then given to us by the pancaratra. How we wake up and how we go to sleep at night anad everything in between. So that whole complete system that is the deity worship. That’s the pancaratra. So the purpose of the pancaratra then is to engage all of our activities, all of our senses, the mind the intelligence, the body, in th e Lord’s service at all times that’s its purpose. So then it becomes perfect support for the sankirtan mission, which is bhagavata marg, because sankirtan mission is actually meant for paramahamsas, but because it’s time - it is in kaliyuga and Lord Caitanya is picking up the most fallen, therefore the majority of those who at least first come in contact, with the Krsna consciousness, with the sankirtan mission are not necessarily  paramahamsas. So the pancaratrika system then gives the social form which they can follow and make dynamic spiritual advancement.

Does this make any sense? Don’t worry you are not the first one who were bored ... many in the past were bored to death by this approach to the Deity worship. The part that I am giving is going to be mainly concepts. And so concepts are going to be; trying to link our philosophy our culture with the rituals that you see.

(end of the 1.st day)

Day Two. Tape One.

BVPS: The purpose in the Vedic literaure of all the rules and regulations is to remember The Lord and not forget. So for someone who is on the brahma bhuta we are basically talking about how  to remember, because there is generally not question of forgetting. ‘cause in the pure state there is no distraction. Brahma bhuta platform means there is no distraction to the mind. Basically everything is neutral. Nothing is positive nothing is negative. So then when you add in but a remembering, then basically you just have to give, what is to be remembered, because that will immediately stick into the mind. So basically pastimes of the Lord is there, His different activities, His wonderful qualities, His wonderful form and that works very very nicely. So you don’t have to give any rules and regulations. You just have to give what the Lord  does and that in itself is victorious over everything. But now the living entity who is in the conditioned state then he has to follow a path of things he should do to develop that attraction, because he doesn’t have, because he is in the minus condition, so he has to come up to the neutral position. And he has to avoid things that will take him away from Krsna consciousness, because of his material desires. So then this means that there is, always going to be desire at every stage. Because the senses are always being engaged and on every stage  the mind and senses will be disturb. So then the whole thing is that Krsna gives the rules and the regulations so that every aspect of life is controlled, is regulated with the idea: just to make it favorable for remember the Lord and favorable to not forgeet the Lord. So now these rules and regulations are coming to us in the  form of the vedic culture. So now as we discussed yesterday in the ordinary varnasrama depending upon the level of consciousness you have a different culture. Wherever is the prominent feature.

So in the ordinary varnasrama that means that the four varnas are consecutively in one of these levels of consciousness. Annamoy, pranamoy, manamoy, vijnanamoy. So you have a sudra, vaisya, ksatriya and brahmana. And because the consciousness is different, the culture has to be different for all of them. While for the devotee, for the vaisnava, he is on the platform of anandamoy. So that is the platform of realized  from one of the platform of brahman. ‘cause you have brahmeti, paramatmeti and bhagavan. Bhagavan means the topmost realisation. So that’s the platform of the vaisnava. Bellow that then you  have the impersonalists, the yogis… you  don’t have the devotees. Devotee  means the bhagavan realisation. So on that platform then we have a culure which matches for everybody on that. And this culture then will be similar it interfaces into the other, the ordinary varnasrama on the platform of brahmana. Because the vaisnava is the topmost brahmana, the realised brahmana. So the culture of the unrealised brahmana and the realised brahmana will be the same. So this then makes the bridges the gab, between someone who is still conditioned nd who wants to engage full time in the devotional service and someone who is not conditioned. So they can follow the same culture, although the depth of realisation will be different. So this way  it accommodates the madhyam, the kanistha and the uttama.  So these rules and regulations of the culure are very exceedingly important for, ae fully important for the kanistha. He must follow. If he doesn’t follow he will not advance. The madhyam it is best for him to follow and he can set a nice example. ‘cause Krsna says in the BG in the 18.ch. or 17.ch : charity, penance and sacrifice these  three even for an advanced purified soul, I mean for advanced person are still purifying. So the madhyam will also follow. Uttama will follow for example. ‘cause uttama will come on the platform of madyam and follow for example for others.

So we see that, that the culture become very relevant for everybody. The kanisthas, the paramahamsas they’ll all follow. So now this culture then works, it’s most applicable for those whose main emphasize is going back to Godhad, to somehow or ther push on the preaching  mission to perfect their life, that’s the daivi varnasrama system. That is meant for those who are on this platform, the brahminical paltform, but they still have to deal with their conditioned nature. So now anyone can be a vaisnava, not everyone can be a brahmana, not everyone can be a ksatriya or vaisya or sudra. It will be different. It will always be different. So but anyone can takeup the devotional service and become a vaisnava. So that means their conditioned nature will go with them into the daivi varnasrama system, but because they have taken up devotional service they came to the platform of realised brahmana. Though their realisation may be not so deep, means just beginning stages just a kanistha, more advance madhyam or very advance he uttama. So when he comes in, now he lives the brahminical culture, because now he is within the realm of the brahman. ‘Cause only brahmana understands brahman, but he still has that  conditioned nature. So he may bring with him some sudra conditioned nature, vaisya conditioned nature, ksatriya conditioned nature or brahmana conditioned nature. So within this then he engages those in the Lord’s service. Brahman means that he engages everything in the Lord’s service, whatever he’s doing is for the Lord. For this higher purpose, for teaching, for preaching. He is not doing so much for his own benefit. You may have a materialistic brahmana, that’s one thing, but still even when he is materialistic, he will only work through the brahminical occupations. He will give his classes. He will teach. Though he may be expecting that students will give him a nice daksin or he will make the endeavour to get students so that he gets some payment or if he wants more  he will be very expert and work for the king. As minister he can get more facility if he wants. In other words facility comes from the braminical culture it’s a metter whether he want to take advantage of it or not.

Like Canakya Pandit. He was the primer minister of Candra Gupta, but he didn’t take any facility. He lived outside the palace. In the little grass hut. And being the brahmana people came and give him something and he lived on that. He took nothing from the palace. He could have. As a prime minister who could live in a big palace himself and have so much, that would be natural, but he didn’t take that. Brahmana it’s his duty. He must do this things. So it’s not that he requires a big payment for that. He must teach. He must do that. He was running his asram and the king Nanda was not good. So many dacoits and other disturbances. Things were just not going rigt in his kingdom, so he couldn’t peacefully run his classes in his asram. So he thought this is crazy. We need a new king. Then he worked. He got rid of the old king. Established the good king. Chandra Gupta was a good king and he was going back to teach his classes. So he was attached, materialists, mainly he is only  ineterested doing his brahminical duties, it’s not a vaisnava. He was on the platform of vipra, very qualified, but he will only make his wealth and all that through the brahminical activities. So that means that conditioned nature will also comes with you. Means it is also the conditioned nature. And it has nothing to do with the devotional service as such, but the daivi varnasrama can interface with the ordinary varnasrama on the platform of brahmana, culturally. Means one can talk to anyone, deal with anyone, preach, but as far as following the culture having values, means cultural values, dealings and all that, they will only be down to the level of brahmana. That’s the lowest that will go. So therefore the brahmana, braminical culture is the common culture. That means if you set only the paramahamsa culture, then that mens only paramahamsas can follow it. But if you set brahminical culture paramahamsas can also follow that, because it is in the mode of goodness. You just remove the material desire that may be there and you have the pure goodness. Means one brahmana  is doing his puja and he is thinking, so right afterward I will get some daksin.

So there is some passion in there. There is some ignorance, because he is not understanding his position as the Lord’s servant. So now paramahamsa can do the same puja simply for the Lord’s pleasure. So it’s just a metter whether you are in goodness or pure goodness, but the culture remain the same. So if you take the culture which is in goodness and you just change the desire then you will have a pure goodness. So it’s compatible. So that’s why we see, Prabhupada talks about the ksatriyas. They can have more then one wife, then may take the toxications, they may go for hunting, kill the animals, they can eat them, whatever, but we don’t see that he introduce that or even talk about to introduce that. When he talk about the varnasrama he never made this point. In fact if someone said I want two wives, Prahupada said, fine, move out of the temple and don’t take any support from the temple. You are  on your own. You come do some e service, but no maintenance from the ISKCON. Because you step out from daivi varnasrama to ordinary. So, but that’s a bonafide rule, ksatriya can do that. So we see what Prabhupada has given us, that’s the brahminical culture. And within this nnow everyone serves the Deity, but according to his capacity. Someone can manage, someone do puja or teaching, someone will generate funds, someone will do the general work, arts or whatever may be, but it’s all being done for the deity. Like here,we have the place here. We clean the roads here, clean the bathroom here, you can’t call it sudra work, because it’s all Krsna’s roads, it’s all Krsna’s guest houses, it’s all being done for the preaching. But you can engage nicely a particular nature in that. But because it’s a devotional service, anyone can do it.  In ordinary varnasrama brahmana can’t clean the toilets. In the daivi varnasrama anyone can do anything, as long as they have the qualifications. So it’s a very subtle difference.

Q:  Bhagavadgita says: If one is engaged in the devotional service, then heis on transcendental level. And transcendental means no conditionings. I would like to know…

BVPS: Because whatever he is doing is transcendental. You are on the transcendental platform. Just like you are on the train to Dellhi, that doesn’t mean you are in Delhi. Means the activity you are performing are transcendental although you may not understand that. Just like Krsna here in the temple, Krsna is there. You can go to talk to Him or He can walk around, He can do everything, though we cannot se that.

Q: There are these discussions in ISKCON for implementation of varnasrama. It refers to daivi varnasrama…?

BVPS: Prabhupada talks about daivi, devotees say daivi, but generally they talk ordinary. I would….. (Tape Two.) ...Pancaratra and how it affects our lives, the importance of the Pancaratrika system. So the whole point is the difference between the ordinary and the daiva is simply consciousness. That’s all. But because of that difference in consciousness, therefore this form will be basically the same, though the culture will be different. ’Cause you’ll see, devotees will say, ”It’s too difficult to live with this particular standard that ISKCON demands - every day mangala arati, reading, and if you have money, give it to the temple - doing all these different things, putting in so much service. We want a little more space, we want a little more independence, we want to have a different culture, though we’re devotees.” So what they’re actually saying is - they don’t understand this - ”We don’t want to act within daiva varnasrama, we want to act within ordinary varnasrama. But we’re devotees working in ordinary varnasrama.” Like the Pandavas, they’re working in ordinary varnasrama - because that’s the culture that’s going on - though their consciousness is in daiva.

Q: So the consciousness would not go to the level that ”I am a ksatriya...”

BVPS: It becomes more prominent. It means - it’s more that ”I am a householder” than ”I am a devotee” - ”I’m a householder but I am a devotee.” The point is, as Krsna says in the Gita: guna and karma. So talk is cheap - it’s what you do that matters. So if in a whole week you come in the temple occasionally on Sunday, to come to the Sunday feast, you show up at the prasadam time and then maybe a little bit at the kirtan, and generally don’t give any money and you don’t have any time, then one cannot say that the aspect of daiva varnasrama is the most prominent in your life. Unless you live so far from the temple, you have your own temple in your house, and you’re really doing first class worship and temple program there but you’re just so far away. That was SP’s idea of having your own temple. But devotees who are living close by, and they can’t - because they’re so busy making money, or trying to make money. You’ll find that people who are actually making money have a lot of time to come to the temple. You go out, catch him, a big businessman, you make him into a devotee, you’ll see him there every morning chanting his japa, then go to the office, every festival he’s there, he helps organize, then he collects funds, he organizes other people - they do big things. They’ve just been doing that, that’s the thing that they’ve been noticing in India, especially with this congregational preaching - the life members have more time to do things, and cen get things done better than those who are many times involved in other activities, they’re too busy. So this means that one has stepped from daiva into ordinary, because of the consciousness. Because the house becomes more prominent. You can say they’re grhamedhi. If you’re looking at it from daiva varnasrama, you can say they’re grhamedhi. But they’ve stepped into ordinary varnasrama, they may not be a grhamedhi. They’re just doing their duties but that becomes more prominent. So they’re devotees, they’re Vaisnavas, but they’re not as active as they necessarily could be, if they wanted. But they’re satisfied there, that’s what they need, due to whatever reasons. It means desire is there, Krsna is fulfilling. So we should not be, there’s no anxiety. Because all it takes is just one day a change in consciousness, and you go from ordinary into daiva. It’s not a major... The problem is that the mind demands that something dynamic must also be seen on some physical platform as dynamic.

Let us take - if you have a very heavy disease...(?)... Then somebody comes along, and he has a very special medicine for that - you take one little pinky pill for a week, and you’ll be OK. You’ll be a kind of thinking, ”Oh, what’s going on here, this is a (?) thing.” But if you have some special diet, you have to fast, then stand on your head, and rub mustard oil on your feet, put burning coal on it - the stuff like that - and eat the banana tree, then you’ll think, ”Wow, this is really serious.” It’s like Chinese medicine - it has to taste bad or hurt, otherwise it’s not considered good. So that’s the mind. The mind thinks, ”It has to be something really dramatic.” So especially those who’re in these realms of anna-maya, prana-maya, mana-maya, they have to see some really... Like justice, someone does some wrong, everyone wants some very heavy punishment for that. Then they consider it’s OK. But when you come up to vijnana-maya, then it’s a kind like understood, ”The material world is like that, there will be problems.” And on ananada-maya, anything sensual is considered very light but anything philosophical is considered very bad. Like we see that SP - sannyasis would fall, GBCs would fall, he would immediately, just when they come back, put them right back in their position. But then in, I think it was 1970, when devotees was coming up, and he was understanding that there was some influence coming in from India - devotees would sometimes leave his name out and not give the proper title, then on ratha-yatra they had him ride in the car because they said it was dangerous to be on the ratha, but devotees were on the ratha and happily smiling and throwing prasadam - he could understand that his position was being reduced. He considered this most disastrous. Though he didn’t consider so disastrous that the sannyasi fell down. Because on the platform of ananda-maya, what is going to stop your advancement to ananda-maya, that is disastrous. Philosophical thing is very disastrous. Sensual thing is like today you do, tomorrow you can give it up. It’s just you change a little bit. But to change philosophical consciousness is not easy. ...I think ’panthas tu koti’ - I don’t remember.

So when he talks about the impersonalists, drilling the respiration and all that, they do this for millions of births. Millions. It takes so long to change the consciousness, to go through this, that out of thousands of those who understand that there’s something higher only one hardly knows that there’s something beyond vijnana-maya. There’s something beyond Brahman. Out of thousands of those absorbed in Brahman very few actually know that there is Parambrahman. So to change the consciousness in this way, philosophically, is very slow. But sensual is (flip) like this. One day you’re completely into some lady, and then she fries you out, and it’s just like ”Forget these ladies.” But if one has some determination, good association, one can stay away. It’s just like that, it can just go, ’cause that’s how the material nature works - you reach your hand, and somebody whacks it, you pull it back. And if you keep going, they just whack harder till you pull it back. So material nature is like that. As you go for material nature, she beats you. So it’s naturally expected you’re going to come back quick. But if philosophically you’re off, she beats you, you make a different philosophy. Therefore, those who are sadhus, those who are honest, they consider a philosophical falldown as great, sensual as very mild. Just like SP did. Just like New Vrndavan, when it philosophically went off, nobody really cared. But when it was pointed out that there were some sensual problems, then it became big. When it’s seen that ”Oh, bad activities are going on, illicit relationships are there,” then it became big nerves. But if it’s just a ... mixing little Christianity, this, that - it’s just weird but you leave it with that. You understand? Because by conditioning, by nature, the religious principles, the religions we’re used to and the culture we’re used to is all in mana-maya, prana-maya, anna-maya. We have no experience with the higher. So prana-maya means, our main thing is that we’re working together. So anything that breaks that, anything that breaks morality is the worst thing. Even if you’re not so religious, doesn’t matter. Christian doesn’t go to church - nobody cares. He doesn’t really follow any religious principles - nobody cares. But if he nods that he steals the neighbor’s potatoes or something, that’s very bad. That’s the platform of modern culture. I mean at least what we accept as conservative modern culture. And if you’re a little religious, that’s a plus. But at least if you’re moral, that’s good enough.

The big leaders, so many now... they go after the ladies he saw in the last few years, in America, in Japan - all these places. Also now in India. They just look for some crack in their morality somewhere - someone talked to a girl they weren’t supposed to - whatever, something like that - and immediately they try to pull him down, based on that only. They’re not going to, ”Hey, look at president Carter, he says he’s Christian, he hasn’t been to church for last three years!” No one says that. It’s not a big deal, so what? But if you say, ”Ten years ago he had one day of pair with this one girl, before he was married.” Oh - then it’s a big thing. They can take it for a ride for so long. Somebody came up with one picture, I think. One picture of him with some lady on some boat. I don’t know if it was this one or the last president, whatever - one of them was on this boat with this girl... in Caribbean. That was a big thing - they were trying to completely put him out of the running, something like this. And this is when he was in college. So that’s a big deal. But the guy never goes to church - who cares? So morality becomes the strong point. So this is the position of the vaisyas. Capitalism, free market - do whatever you want, no one bothers you. Of course, government bothers, but you tolerate that. You understand the government has to take some tax to make things run. That’s your reason is tolerating. But if you can avoid it, then it’s fine. So much talk about morality but we don’t pay our taxes - you think that’s OK. And if they catch you, OK, you got caught. We worked bad, just they were more clever and they caught us. Therefore the point is that this consciousness and all these different things, the whole point is that if you can change that, you change from one system to the other. If you lower the consciousness, you go down. Like social development means developing Vaisnava qualities, the Vaisnava behavior. But now you see a lot of discussion of social development is not on this platform, developing social, Vaisnava etiquette - which is social development. But instead of that economics, the power structures, who’s in control, who has the money - they’re only talking that.

Anyone’s talking about our devotees washing their feet after they go to the toilet, our devotees washing their feet and hand after they eat, that they eat with the fingers instead of the spoon, that they know what is the Vaisnava menu, how to serve it? I guarantee, you’ll bring - this festival, thousand devotees come, you can take all of them. 99.9 % will fail in being able to answer any of these questions. So that is social development. But instead it’s being ... into men and money. Independence - I have my men and I have my money and I have my independence. So that’s fine. And that is varnasrama - but ordinary varnasrama. Daiva varnasrama means daiva. That’s the whole point, this Krsna is a realist. Like it is said, He does not see what you give, He sees what you keep. So what, you gave a lakh of rupees, but if you keep hundreds of crores for yourself, then what’s the meaning? But a guy has two lakhs, he gives one lakh - Krsna sees that. So Krsna’s a realist. So the whole point is it is consciousness. Therefore, if you look at this, then daiva varnasrama means following the culture of the brahmanas, and those brahmanas who have understood that their business is serving the Lord. That is daiva varnasrama. So now, because any soul, that’s his natural position, but he’ll come with his conditional nature. Therefore he may bring with him brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra conditional nature with him. So now he engages that fully in the Lord’s service, and then there is no difference in that. You don’t have to make a distinction that vaisya is higher than a sudra, ksatriya is higher than a vaisya, brahmana is higher than all, because the consciousness is the same. It’s all ananda-maya. Therefore they’re equal. It doesn’t matter if you clean the toilets, or you’re dressing the Deities. It’s the same. Sri-vigraharadhana nitya nana, srngara tan mandira-marjanadau. Dressing the Deities, cleaning the temple - and that’s all considered within... So this is the seed of the Pancaratrika system, the Pancaratrika culture - there is no difference. Because the boy is cleaning the toilet, and he’s thinking about the Deities. Devotee’s dressing the Deities, he’s thinking about the Deities.

Q: But still there’s a tendency in ISKCON that sankirtan devotees get like... the sankirtan service is the best service... so in this way...

BVPS: One can, in the neophyte position, see it... SP said, the book - the front-line preaching, of course, has so much benefit. But there’s no question of the front-line preachers doing front line if there’s no back-up. I mean in the general situation. Sometimes you ride in your bus, but how many skt devotees could stay out there on the road and never visit the temple for years? Never come to a festival, only sour cream and oil... for the next ten years, who can do? So if they can’t do it, then how can they critisize those who are doing all that back-up service? Now, they have their books - what about the devotees who translated the books? What about the devotees who do all the layout and get it printed? You have a devotee, all he does is work the press - so you could say, ”Oh, that’s a sudra job.” But if he doesn’t do that, no book distributors could be out distributing the books. And now, unless all the book distributors are also dirtectly going right to the... right when they’re printed, then what about the devotee who drove those books from the press to the warehouse? If he didn’t do that, no book distributors can go out.

He understands some of the aspects? So the whole point is, this preaching mission is sankirtan, it is complete kirtan. So that includes the boy who washes the pots. Because if he doesn’t wash the pots, nobody cooks the prasada. If nobody cooks prasada, you can’t worship the Deity, and nobody eats any prasada. So the boy washing the pots is just as important as the other, though the thrust will be on the preachers. It means everybody’s consciousness is there. Just like you have Vrndavan - the conjugal rasa is the highest. Of that, Radharani’s relationship to Krsna is the highest. But now, if you just take Radha and Krsna and stick Them in the clouds somewhere, then do you have any pastimes? Anything happens? No. How can they be cowherd boys and girls unless you have the cows? And who’s taking care of the cows? Nanda Baba and... those who’re in the vatsalya rasa, and the boys who are in the sakhya rasa. Then they can call themselves cowherd boys and girls. Now, how do you call yourself cowherd boys and girls if you have no cows? Those cows are in the santa rasa. And then, how do you have cows if you have no grass? And you can’t just have an open field with grass, you have to have some trees, otherwise it’s too hot. And they can’t just only eat grass, they need some water - so you have to have Yamuna. You understand - it’s all connected. But the thrust in Vrndavan is simply to assist in Radha and Krsna’s pastimes. So in the sankirtan mission everybody has the consciousness of the preaching, the front line preaching, the book distribution, the preaching to devotees. Now, you distribute the book, you make the devotee, now is that it, finished? If that’s finished, then we can take the Nectar Of Devotion and just throw it in the river, we don’t need it. That is for us the culmination of our service, but for someone else it’s simply the beginning. And I have to train them in devotional service. So that means, if sankirtan, they don’t need bhakta programs. They should just go straight out on the road, and no one should spend any time learning how to behave as Vaisnavas. Because at any moment, as they finish their rounds, they’re not eating and not sleeping, they should be just distributing books.

Q: ...come back to the temple... the best preachers are the most renounced...

BVPS: No, what’s your point?

Q: That there’s some difference in... realization... Not all services are equal...

BVPS: Why not? Because you’re not listening to anything.

Q: I understood so far that the result... seems to be a little more...

BVPS: So then what is the result of it that it is difference? What do you want now from that? All right, let us say that there is a difference. Now what?

Q: Sankirtan devotees are going quicker...

BVPS: No no no. Now what to do? You have them, there’s a difference, so how do you make that difference? What are we gonna do with that difference? They’re better. They’re the best. Now what are we gonna do? You have to do something. Better - it means there is some discrimination. So now they either have to get a better prasada, or they have to be glorified more, or something like that. Isn’t it? Then it makes the difference, right? Otherwise there’s no difference. You understand? So now, that’s the point - is making that difference ..., or is making the difference simply for the preaching mission. So there is difference, but there is no difference. ...madhurya rasa is the highest but at the same time they are all equal. You understand? That’s the point - acintya bhedabheda tattva. Two contradictory thing happening simultaneously. Krsna’s the biggest, and He’s the smallest. He’s in everything, He’s outside. This is what makes Krsna unique. He’s full of all these contradictory... So if you can understand contradictory, then you can actually understand the Gaudiya-Vaisnava philosophy. If you can’t, then you best take up another philosophy. Dvaita - there are two. Pass. There is one. No - there’s two, there’s one, like that. So they are the best, and everybody respects but at the same time it’s all equal. In Krsna’s eyes, Hanuman throwing in tops of mountain peaks, I mean, they were not little mountains - big mountain peaks. And Ramacandra considers that the same as ... who’s kicking in a little dust, ’cause devotional endeavor is the same. At the same time, in the Ramayana you hear about Hanuman through the whole thing, and that ... you only heard about him that one verse. So there is difference but at the same time there is not. So this is important. There’s a balance. That’s why it’s called sankirtan - everybody needs each other. The skt devotees need the back-up in the temple, the temple devotees need the skt devotees.

So now, if you’re coming from the brahminical platform, that’s fine. If you’re coming from the vaisya platform, you only distribute more books because you’ve heard your name in the morning, and you heard this guy did one more book than you did - today I’m gonna do more because I want my name to be on top. Then you’ll see that devotee after three years, when you’ll come back and check. The ones who do still distributing books now, after 20, 25 years, they couldn’t care less, if you read their name out or not. ’Cause that is the book distributor that is carrying brahminical conditioning, or may even be beyond this conditioning. Whereas the book distributor who has vaisya conditioning, then it’s - what benefit? ”We’re skt devotees, we come back, we got to be respected, we got to get a good place to stay, good prasadam. If we roll into the temple on the festival, there’s no place for the skt devotees to stay special, we’re not getting good prasadam, just standing in line with everybody else, then? Then what’s the use?” Now he’s out there doing big books, big distribution, big realization - he comes back and he can’t be humble. He considers, ”I am a special devotee.” So now, of course, temple should be taking care. Sometimes Krsna, out of His cleverness, arranges that the temple devotees make mistakes. And then the skt devotee finds himself there without proper facility. And then he gets upset. And then Krsna laughs. So the temple devotee’s wrong, they didn’t take care - here’s your most valuable man, and you’re not taking care, that’s foolish. But at the same time, Krsna’s teaching a lesson to the skt devotees. ”You may be in a special position, but -” Why? Krsna just stood there and thought it was very nice when the gopis became proud at the rasa dance? No - He disappeared at that second. They were the best, but when they became proud, He immediately disappeared.

So I’m approaching all this, you have to understand, we’re talking culture now. The culture means devotional culture, means the Vaisnava etiquette - that is the culture to develop. So if we say social development, we mean development of the Vaisnava culture, development of what we see in the Caitanya-caritamrta - how the devotees deal with each other, how they do things - all these different things. That is what we talk about. So that culture that is followed there, that is the Gaudiya-Vaisnava culture. That is the culture of the spiritual realm, it springs naturally from the heart. Because of their affection - what is that verse? I don’t remember the verse but I remember the meaning. It says, ’yam kama-krodha-sahaja pranayadhipiti vatsalya-moha guru gaurava sevya-bhavai’ - so depending upon what your rasa is with Krsna, you’ll manifest a form, a spiritual form. And that form has its culture and everything, how you relate with Krsna. Cowherd boys can do some things gopis cannot do, mother Yasoda cannot do. She can do things that the cowherd boys and the gopis cannot do. Cowherd boys can do things the cows cannot do. So like that - everybody has... Just by the nature of their love, there is a way it manifests. And if you maintain that, that’s good, and if you break that, you mix in your own way, you get rasa-bhasa.

Q: How is the change of the consciousness... the vaisya mentality... how is it brought about? ...most effective ...on sankirtan out there, there’s the most purification taking place.

BVPS: That may be, but I was talking from culture right now...

Q: But how that...

BVPS: It is by association and by trying to understand, by educating yourself. Sankirtan means we’re distributing the book - what’s the purpose? Just to get some money? No, then that’s business. SP says, ”We’re going, and we’re giving people knowledge. And because they appreciate that knowledge, they naturally give, reciprocate with the donation. A brahmana teaches you, you give daksina.” So that’s how SP’s seeing the sankirtan, the book distribution. Yeah - compassion, but you’re going and you’re giving knowledge to others. Giving an opportunity for them to understand their relationship with Krsna. And, them being happy with that, they give you money. Vaisya just sees, you go out, do this many books to get this much money, and then we can... You understand? Naturally we’re going to use that money, but skt has its purpose. It is that it is education. ’Cause if we see this, then the next step is, ”All right, now when they join we educate them further.

Q: Is it by association...

BVPS: Yes, by association, by educating yourself - reading, discussing, preaching - because when you preach, you’ll also get realization. So it’s all necessary. Because the whole point is you’re trying to understand, we’re trying to learn our relationship with the Lord. So this whole point is in the consciousness. It’s not in the service. There is no doubt that any front line preaching is the best thing one can do. Maybe when one is new, one is not so expert, doesn’t know so much, one’s culture is not so developed - so naturally he’ll do more the back-up. But as he becomes advanced, it’s natural...

…but one should not become proud. Otherwise one will fall from that position.

Devotee: …real advanced devotee is not proud.

BVPS: yes. Of course. if you will get that association. Yes. You will also find that the advanced devotee may do the other things. May do other service. Like Prabhupada says there is sadhana siddhi then there is a kripa siddhi, but he also mentions there is arcan siddhi. You just by worshipping the Deities you go directly back to godhead. So one can be advanced there. I would find it hard to say that those devotees that have dedicated themselves to printing the Prabhupada’s books are also not advanced. You know. Or someone can do whatever they can do.

Devotee: of course you can also say they are front-liners

BVPS: But the whole point is: this is the sankirtan mission, if you are in the right consciousness everything is in the front. When the temple is clean, people will come to the temple and they will be impressed by the cleanliness.

Devotee:  …front line are the Radha- Madhava

BVPS: ye. So it’s: front line is what you make a front-line. I mean it’s like you could say, someone on book distribution in America. The biggest, top of the line sankirtan in America was the airports. Probably the airports sankirtan, how they did it in the last three years, was  probably the worst PR that could ever been done to the American  public. So then how do you call that a front-line. The thing was get the book out doesn’t matter what  happened. I sold the book it doesn’t matter whether the guy hates Krishna and devotees after that or not. I made my money. I made my quota. My name is said in the morning.  So one has to see what actually becomes front line preaching. Just like  they were telling, I don’t how long it was. They were dealing with some big PR person in America for something and then a kind of off hand  one of the devotees, leading devotee who was dealing with the whole thing ask the man, what is his opinion, one thing if devotees did it will give them the most benefit in rising the PR. Man thought about it a little bit and he said: “ If you would just wear the same colored socks.” (Laughing) Because one devotee wore one green and one blue socks. So people really think this people must really be space out. Because no one in the world wear in the same pair two  kinds. “So if you just do that then people would really improve their …..” And this was a big, a really big PR man. He do the big stuff. So he is very clever. So something like that.  So we understand there is always the thing: demons and this and that, but we can’t be proud. Because the pride is the demon then we are carrying the demon with us. So it becomes very very subtle in this. You know there is the activity and there is the quality of the activity. So none will deny that anything that we are doing for the preaching that is the best, but then the quality of consciousness.We must also strive to make that best.

So it’s not enough I went out and distribute books.  At the beginning it might be, but as the time goes then we have to work on the consciousness. Otherwise they will go down. Pride will come and then what’s the meaning. That’s all right. Those people got the books, they will benefit, they will get some credit, but we will not get as much credit as we could get. Or you sold the books to this person. He got very upset and throws the Gita into the garbage, walks off and carrying with him the bad fillings towards the devotees. Another guy walks by sees the Gita in the garbage picks it up. Reads it. Becomes interested, becomes the devotee. Krishna gets the credit for that one, not the book distributor. There is so many stories like that. Of course so many book distributors are doing very sincerely and there is the demon and he throw away the Gita and book distributor gets the credit for that also. These are a very subtle points and we are talking on this, just that we can understand that there is a difference simply by a fine change inn the consciousness you get from the one system into another, though they look exactly the same. And we have to understand that the results from this two systems are different. Just like the karmi cooks rice and vegetables and he is a vegetarian and the devotee cooks. But that one at the best he can get up to the heavenly planets, but the devotee will go back to godhead. And they are cooking the same rice they went to the same store, they bought the same rice and the same cauliflower. So they take it at home. They don’t cook it in the aluminum pot, they are cooking it in something else. They both use the same wooden spoon. Like that.

But the difference in the result is the completely different. So that’s the thing: is it ordinary or daiva. So we trying to get. The thread of this conversation  is that; The culture in the spiritual realm is the visuddha sattva. And that’s springing naturally from the heart. Now you bring the living entity into the material world. If you want to get him back there you have to get him to follow that culture of the spiritual world. But now because there (in the spiritual world) it comes from the heart. Their rasa with Krsna, naturally all that comes. But in the material world it doesn’t naturally comes. You heard all right Krsna is there with his devotees, but there is now natural spontaneous love. So to follow that culture of the spiritual world you have to give a set of the rules and regulations. You have to take that and say: all right gopis can do this they don’t do that. Cowherd boys can do this thay don’t do that. So it comes down like this. Man do like this, women do like that. Brahmacaris do like this, grihastas do like that, sanyasis do like that, those who are unmarried do like that.., brahmanas like that, and you make the rules. What are their things they do. Like to say girls their cover their head. Why? Radharani when their are walking through the country side sometimes theiri cloth fall off from their head, they don’t care, because their are just with the girls. As soon as their come to the village, they are going from their village in .Yadav to Nandagram, as soon as they finish going through the fields and their come to the point where, now they are coming to the outskirt, they immediately cover their heads. So this is what Radharani does.  So now there is no more perfect girl as Radharani. So this is te rasa girls cover their heads. So therefore here you make it the rule, girls cover their heads. But there you don’t have to make that rule, they just do it, because there it is their natural  rasa. You don’t have to say. So therefore it comes to us here in the form of rules and regulations. That’s why it says all the rules are for remembering Krishna and not forgetting. It is so that we develop that culture there. There their follow spontaneously here we follow because of the rules and regulations. So intellectually we accept, yes we do and then all right we do this rule, all right I do it.  We may ask why? Then we understand more it deepens our understanding as we become purified these things becomes natural.

Devotee: what is the role of the instruction of the guru in the ordinary and daivi varnasrama? Seems to me that instruction of the guru is for the devotional service, because of that instruction therefore makes advancement. But is there also some instructions in ordinary varnasrama that guru gives?

BVPS: ye. Of course. But that we’ll get into it tomorrow. So we are getting closer. Once we understand this then we get into: How the pancaratrik  system is that culture. That’s the point we are trying to get to.

That’s the whole point and then from that what is the pancaratra?

(end of day two)

Day Three. Tape Two.

Basically we are looking at that in the spiritual realm the living entity is there and worship the Lord from their own spontaneous affection which springs from their heart. And they manifest the particular form and particular rasa that is in line with that particular kind of affection which they have. So there everything works very very naturally, because that is their identity, that is their mood, their actual eternal mood. So everything works perfectly. You don’t have changes, because that is actually them. So there, because of this culture, then .... so what you get is the culture, that is there. You have the Vrindavan culture or you have the Dvaraka culture or Vaikuntha culture, the Ayodhya culture and it will always be based on the, it will all have connection with what we call the vedic culture, but it will emphasize the different flavors. Vrindavan - the vaisya aspects and the aspect of pure love will come ouot. Ksatriya aspect more in Dvaraka, Vaikuntha in Ayodhya. Navadvip then brahminical culture will be more prominent, but in all those then the love of the Lord is there. So depending upon the rasa that will also create... what rasas are there what rasas are more prominent. Like in Dvaraka you have all five rasas like in Vrindavan, but we see that the emphasize on the conjugal is less. (Conjugal rasa) is there. He has 16 108 wifes, but that’s just part of it - He has his wives, but then the whole ksatriya thing, the friendship, the dealing with Maharaja Ugrasena, the dealings with the servants, these all become more prominent. So then in Ayodhya, everyone sees that the conjugal rasa becomes reduced down to one, down to Sita devi, but it’s there. He is with Sita Devi, He moves with her, the attachements are there. While in the Vaikuntha then also Laksmi is there, but the dealings with her are very formal, very very formal. There is no attachements, He is God. So this is just His energy His internal potency. So relationship is there, but the activities are not seen. Though the mood between the Lord and the Laksmi will be very intimate, but we will not see the activities manifests. So those are manifested more in the Dvaraka or Ayodhya and their are manifested even more in the Mathura and the most in the Vrindavan.

So the whole idea is that the culture is there and is coming because of the natural love of the devotees have for the Lord. So now when you come into this material world those living entities who come here, then there is no love for the Lord. One’s come here because love have been transformed into lust. So that means there is no way to naturally just serve the Lord, because the relationship is not there. So what happens is, is technicaly, knowledge of the living entity, living entity is sat-cit-ananda, so that cit potency, that cit aspect of the living entity, there very naturally spontaneously comes out of his heart and he serves the Lord then comes into the material world with the living entity in the form of the Vedas. So the Veda is that cit potency. Because he himself now is coveredyou don’t see sat-cit-ananda manifested, he is covered. So now from the Vedas that knowledge then can be gain again. What is spontaneous love there becomes the Vedas here and then is given to us in the form of rules and regulations. So now what happens is; is then the living entity who surenders to the Lord, he follows these codes of activities how to worship the Lord. Means there they worship out of spontaneous love, here he has to go through the rules and regulations, because he has no love. So it says; you get up in the morning, you take your bath you do all these things. You do mangala aratik, you make offering in this way, you dress in this way, you bath the Deities.

So many rules are there and so he follows those rules. So now he is following the rules or the externals of the culture that’s being followed in the spiritual realm. Because that’s in the spiritual realm also. They wake up Krsna early in the morning, then they bath Him and then they dress Him then they feed Him ... so many things. They do all that in the spiritual realm. There it’s done out of love. So here we follow the same culture, but now it’s in the form of the rules and regulations. Because we don’t know, so we are told what to do. So then the idea is by following those the heart becomes purified and so you following the culture now just the culture itself is not going to; it can purify you to some degree. Basically from the platfrom of, on it’s own it can purify you makes you pious. It brings you to the mode of goodness. So then that makes you pious, but it can not purify you to the point of developing the love. Therefore the culture can only be a support for the chanting of the Holy Name. So in this age, that’s why I said, the chanting of the holy name is The Process, not the process of Deity worship. It is an anga of that chanting. Because if we would follow just the culture it’s not going to get us there. All right. Unless that devotion is there, unless the chanting is there. So it becomes a part. So when you do both together then it works very well.

So now you look at it. Now we have the chanting, which is the process and we have the culture, that is the culture coming from the spiritual world. The culture that pancaratra gives is only what is done in the spiritual world it is not giving something else. It’s not that this is something and there it is something else. No it’s the same. We sit in lines here and take prasadam, they sit in the lines there and take prasadam. We eat with the right hand and Krsna eats with his right hand. We eat here the bitter first then sak and like that, Krsna eats sukta, sakari, baji.. it’s the same. After eating take a little rest, it’s the same. Krsna wears dhotis we are wearing dhotis. All right. Like that. So it’s the same. So you have the culture of the spiritual realm and you have the chanting of the holy name. So it’s a perfect combination. So now this becomes important for those who have come here who are conditioned which basicaly we are talking about most. There is always the few elevated personalities which we rearly now and then get the association now, but the other then them then you have to follow these rules and regulations, because otherwise without the love you don’t know what to do. All right. Just like the mother has love fro the child, if she sees some dangerous situation fro the child, she doesn’t think ”Oh here comes the big 500kg dog looking very hungry with his mouth open and running at my baby now this could be dangerous. I remember from school dogs do it the babies. Yes. I remember that the (highiness=name of the dog) use to still the babies in the eastern europe. So there is the posibility that maybe this dog can eat my baby and he is going at that direction. So and he does look hungry so maybe I should go and check it out.”

NO! None of that goes on. She just see that and immediately runs to the baby, because of her attachement. So now if you take an another lady and it’s not her baby, then she will see whow look at that dog. wow he just grab the baby and run of. wow. Did you see that! So when the affection is there you just act. And when the affection is not there, then you know, then the things can get a bit esoteric, intelectuall. So and you may have to be told. Hey. No No listen. It is social thing. It may be not your baby, but it’s someone lese baby you have to bring them from annamoy to pranamoy then thay may thing Oh yes, this is either baby of or comunity or baby of our nation. You know it’s a human baby. or whatever it is. Baby of the universe, so we have to take care. Then you thing all right, then rules come in and then you deal. So when there is an affection it just happens. Affection it just happens. So now we can see that, from this, these rules and regulations will come down in many ways. So you have the varnasrama system. And varnasrama system is meant for everyone who wants to be on the human platform. And even then others will follow to some degree, even the mlechas and yavanas or candalas, some aspects will follow, though not necessarily in any refine maneer. But those who are human who fit within brahmana, kstriya, vaisya and sudra, this is human. Then they follow these rules and it makes the social order in which they can function and everything. And now it makes it easy to implement. Just like when you want to learn something you go to teacher. Even someone who is complete 100% materialist, if he wants to learn something he goes to his teacher. And then teacher teaches him. Or like that someone goes to his father. Father in the family then there is the mother. So when he is young he sees the mother and in time he sees the father. And with time he sees the people outside that. The father has seniors and then the whole concept of the hierarchy, the parampara is manifested. He has the teacher and hemuust learn the music that teacher had a teacher, this goes back and you can count so many generations.

Like now people can count back to 10.cent. Yes this is our line. You know we come from the other line. So they can say yes. So the principle of parampara is established even though it is not at all spiritual. Respect for the parents is there. Respect for the other living entities is there. All this is established, though it’s not spiritual. How they eat. They eat with the right hand not with the left hand. So everything is there but just it’s not the prasadam. They are dressing in the dhotis in all that, living very simple, but it’s not that they are doing it for Krsna. So now all you have to do is add Krsna and it all becomes perfect. Then you already following that culture. So the idea is in the material world you are following the vedic culture, then that’s the perfct culture for the material world, because it’s just the reflection from the spiritual world. Now all you have to do is to change the lust back into love. And then everything is OK. You are following the same culture the same everything. So the idea is then, the Pancaratra is then that culture, which means that vedic culture, which those who are devotees follow. They follow that culture. So that takes all the aspects of the varnasrama, that fits very nicely, very directly with serving the Lord. So then that becomes within the big circle of varnasrama, smaller. All right. Means for the devoees.

So as we discussed before, we are discussing the varnasrama, we have this two kinds of varnasrama, they look exactly the same. One is you have the four levels of consciousness, so the higher the level of consciousness, the higher that order. Sudras are on the lovest, vaisyas above that, then ksatriyas and brahmanas. So then the hierarchy is there. But now anandamoy means they are devotees, that is thirmain iinterest, the consciousness is on that platform, so devotional service comes first. Anything else is second. So on that then you have brahmanas. So one might say, pancaratra, all right that’s the system of worship, and the life style of the brahmanas. We can see in the daivi varnasrama system that becomes the code of conducts for those who follow the daivi varnasrama system. Because they are brahmanas. So this code of conduct, whether you are in the temple or not in the temple it still manifests. Because to a brahmana he is always prepared for doing this things. In consciousness and this and that. He might be bussy, .. adjustments are there. Because pujaris are not always in the Deity room. But whether they go to the Deity room or they are not they still get up for mangala aratik, they still take a bath, they still brush, they teeth, they still wore a tilak and the neckbeads and the brahmana thread, theye still chant their gayatri. So all that remains. So the whole idea is; is that the culture of Krsna consciousness that’s followed in the spiritual realm is natural, spontaneous. Here it’s not. It has to come in the rules and regulations. So that is the importance of the rules and the regulations to give a form give a culture, give a way to interact with ourself with the Lord. In other words those who follow the daivi varnasrama are; it’s basicaly manditory they follow the Pancaratra system. And we can see that what is followed in the Caitanya Caritamrita by the Lord and His devotees at least what is described there. We can see that also perfectly, that is following the system of Pancaratra. So that is the culture of there.

So now the differnce is that we follow the pancaratrik culture with the idea of attaining Vrindavan. While in the South India they follow the Pancaratra culture with the idea to go to Vaikuntha. So they will emphasise those aspects that increase the Vaikuntha flavour. While we will reduce those and increase those that increas the Vrindavana flavour. The only difference between them is moods. All right. Krsna in Vrindavan is the mood datta. He forgets he is the Lord. While in the Vaikuntha, He is 100% sarvajna, He knows everything, sees everything, He is in control of everything. So the mood changes the person is the same. It’s the same person, but because the mood is changed. Looks will be different, dealings will be different. When the highcourt judge is in the home with the wife and the kids and kid is riding on his back, wrestling, sitting on the top. Wife is telling him this and that. All htis is going on, but it’s not that he is not high court judge. He is not worrying being a high court judge. All right. He is forgot about that. Now the kids are sitting on his back on top and beating him and now he is defeated by his 3 years old son. Big high court judge. Now it’s time to go the office. He goes to the office, dresses up. He has his black thing, sitting at his bench and he has his ... and all that and evrybody has to say: Oh Your Honor. Even when the wife comes to the court she has to say Your Honer, she can’t say hey Henrry. She can’t do that. She has to say Your Honor. But it’s the same person just mood is changed, but now only those aspects manifests. Therefore in Vaikuntha, though Krsna has 64 qualities, but in Vaikuntha He only manifests 55 fully and other five to some degree, while in the Dvaraka 60 of them fully and four he won’t manifest and in Vrindavan He will manifest all the 64. But it’s Krsna. Therefore Kesava dhrita Kuyrma sarira, kesava dhrita mina sarira, kesava dhrita budha.... When we see Nrsimhadev here, this is Nrsimhadeva but it’s Kesava, He is Nrsimha. Not somebody else, somebody different. Same person. But in this form you have to worship Him like Nrsimha. You know, He expects you will deal with Him in that way and like that. He likes things in that way, because this is His mood. So now the point of all this, bringing all these together is that we must follow, to make advancement, to conntrolthe conditioned nature, we ,ust have the rules and regulations. It come to us in the form of culture, processes of worship, this and that. Conditioned nature requires annamoy, pranamoy, manamnoy. We must have, the sanses must be taken care of, there must be some way to deal peacefullyt with others and there must be a social structure there must be religious rules and regulations. There must be some kind of religious principles. Like that. So either you will make them up or we will follow Krsna. We don’t have any other alternative. So Krsna is kindly given us Pancaratra which does that for us. It gives us everything.

Now the next point. Now we will step right into the Pancaratra. ... That will be same just like Bhagavatam. And it gives also social things like samskaras all this, but the main thing is that we talk about is, there is CLEANLINES and PUNCTUALITY. This two things. Prabhupada said: Deity worship means cleanliness and punctuality. And Prabhupada says: Brahmana means clean. So all the rules of cleanlines in the Pancaratra aplly to brahmana. There is two kinds of punctuality. One daily and one occasionally. So like a festival, like ekadasi is occasional. Janmastami you have once a year. Nrsimha Caturdasi also or kartik month. These are all considered occasional. Or what is called naimitik kriya. Namitik means occasioanly done and then daily means nitya, kriya so that’s done every day. So timeliness you have two kinds naimitik and nitya. So to undertsand the occasional is just occasionally doing what much you do on the daily bussiness. Though you may take aspects of it and expand it. You know it’s a festival so something becomes more prominent then what you do every day. Every day you eat, but today you have a feast. Everyday you bath the Lord but today you have a big abhisek. Everyday you dress the Lord today is the special dress. Like that. So that makes the Naimitik. So by understanding the Nitya you can understand the whole system. So now the nitya kriyas then are broken into the five parts. So then these fives makes up the complete Deity worship. If you don’t fiollow this five you don’t actualy have Deity worship. So the first one is called abhigamana. That means when we are preparing to come to the Temple and preform our activities. The second is called upadana, which means we collect whatever paraphernalia we need to do the worship.

Then we have a yoga, which means to spiritualize ourself and the paraphernalia, means the Lord is already spiritual, but ourself we may be, our consciousness is not proper, we have a material body, we want to bring the paraphernali made out of brass, wood or silver, whatever. We have to bring it that’s not spiritual. We have to bring it up to the spiritual level. By identifying it as the Lord’s. Means we are identifying ouurselfs and paraphernelia as the Lords. Then once everything is on the spiritual platform then the fourth one is called ija. Were you actually worship the Lord you offer these differnet paraphernelia to the Lord. And then the fifth one, which in one sense is the most important without that all the other one are useless is called svadhyaya. There is also another term. Two terms are used for it. Literaly it means study, but in the vedic terms this includes studying, practissing and teaching others. That’s completely svadhyaya. If you study and then don’t do you have no realisations. In the process of learning fisrt thing is to hear. it’s called sravanam. And after you hear you contemplate. This is callefd mananam. You think about it. So this is a platform of jnan. Then the next platform is called nividyasana, which means you have realized. That’s the platform of vijnan. And on this platform when you realised, you do. You can’t realized that the chanting Hare Krsna is the process fort his age and the only way we can be saved and understand that in the core of your heart and not chant. If you understand yes, yes, I agree, it’s the best thing. Then why don’t you chant. I have no time. That means he is only on the stage of mananam, second stage. As soon as you come to the first then values, life style changes. So if we see someone has not changed, you teaching them something and they haven’t changed, that’s means they didn’t come yet to the third platform. Then once to one becomes practise and situated on the third platform, then the next platform is preaching, you teach that to others. So therefore study, practise and teaching. All those three are understood as svadhyaya. ’cause the vedas are very practical.

Now we have come from Goloka Vrindavan down to here. And understand the vedic culture and comming to the brahminical platform. And in that practising the daivi varnasrama then according to the rules given to us by Pancaratra. Then Pancaratra is these five. Now we will deal with these five, basicaly from now on. So if there is any question on before. Questions how the culture there becomes transformed into the Pancaratra here.

Q:how is that one has to bring paraphernalia unto the spiritual platform .... I thought that the Krsna’s paraphernalia is on the spirit... on other site what about the paraphernalia when it is stil in the market place.

BVPS: We will get into the details later, but the principle is, see the point is that the paraphernalia may be spiritual, but we are not. Just like if we would be fully on the transcendental platform we could go up and talk to the Deities and take part in all their activities, sit down and take lunch there and do all that. but we don’t see. Like that. The whole part of yoga basically means that we are having to come to that platform, because the energy for Krsna can’t go either way. That just means the external potency isjust the shadow of the internal and the shadow and the person are not considered to be different, although they are different, but they are not considered different. Means the person moves the shadow moves. So the shadow is only moving because the person is moving. So that means if material nature is controlling, so it’s only because it’s a transmission of the spiritual nature. So the energy for the material nature to work is coming from the spiritual nature. Otherwise it will not work. Krsna has put His energy in here. Of great things He is the Himalayas. between the waters He isthe Ocean. So His potency is within there. Of controlers He is the monarch. He is Indra, He is Prahlad. So whatever He says in the Gita this is how His internal potency comes into the external potency in order to make it work. Because you’re wondering how is that the material nature work, ’cause it’s just dead metter. How the arm is moving. Because the person moves the arm. The internal potency moves the arm and therefore the external potency moves the arm. So now how that technicaly works, that Krsna tells in the Gita. Part of it. So that potency is there that’s the internal potency is then put into the external. Otherwise it doesn’t work, it’s a shadow. It’s deads metter. So for Krishna this things, paraphernalia that’s not the problem. Balarama expands. But He also expends if it’s accepted as paraphernalia. I mean the whole Navadvip, the market there, the brass market is full of aratik lamps, but you don’t call that Balarama. So the only when is here and we accept that this is the paraphernalia of the Lord, then we see Balarama manifest. And if we just think that this is something else. I’ll use it as baby... all that. Then Balarama doesn’t manifets there, not as Balarama, He will manifest through the modes of nature, but He won’t manifest through the internal potency. So it’s all our consciousness. Even though it is. That’s why wne you go to the market there and you drop lamp there, then there is no offense. It may be bad manner, you may have to pay something for damaging it, but that’s it. But if you don’t take carefo rthe paraphernalia here, because Balarama accepted to resite there and you don’t repsect that. Means today you did and the afternoon you don’t, tthen He get upset. He may go back from there. So every day you are recommiting, yes this is the Lord this is Balarama. But for him this way that way does not metter.

Q:You said that when we buy the paraphernalia in the market, Lord Balarama is not yet fully manifested there and what about the Deities which they are selling in the market. Is that Krsna or—

BVPS: Means, instalation starts when in our mind we conceive of the Deity. So before you go to the market generaly you conceive, yes I want to buy the aratik lamp of the particular style. So already that instalation has started. You go there and may be you find what you want or may be you find something else then you were looking for, but you get, and you are satisfied. So that means it’s already started. Then you bring it back. That’s why, if you really look at the details, when we come down and look at the details, we start to see how broad the Deity worship is, because it’s conceived when we think of the form of the Deity. So that’s the first step. So that means when we go there and purchase the Deity or get the Deity or however, make the Deity, order the Deity, that’s the next stage. That’s not outside, that’s still part of the instalation. And to do that you have to have money. And where the money come from. So that means collecting the money for the Deity is also part of this process, part of the instalation. So those who are collecting the money. Then they also have to eat and have a place to stay. So whoever is doing a cooking and arranging the place to stay are also part of this process. The devotee who manages the temple and take care of all that he is part of the process. Therefore it’s called sankirtan. All right. And this can be understood, especialy understood by uttamas, the madhyams have a good glimpse of it, but the kanisthas generally just see when the deity is installed, here is GOD, before that we have a stone. That’s why the rituals are so elaborate, because you have to convince the materialists now stone has become GOD. All right. But otherwise with the devotee, Krsna and His form are not different. So it’s automatically Krsna. So the instalation basically for us means, that we are formarly commiting ourself to do worship every day of the particular standart and the Lord accepts that. Or at least the Lord accepting it. The accepts is up to Him. So for us the instalation is that formal process in which we say we are going to worship You every day. It’s accepted by authorities, everybody involved, like that and then it happens.

Yes. It’s like the promise. But for the smartas or even those who are on the Vaikuntha platform, who may or may not fully understand, because they don’t have the thing: acintya bheda bheda tattva. So for them things are little bit more cut and dry. So for them basically stone becomes GOD. Like I have seen acaryas of the Madhvas. They bring the Deities and set up their elaborate altar. Takes them hours to set up, do all the preliminary worship, do all the worship, hours and hours. When they finish, because they install their Deitiesa every day, means the main Deities are always installed, but they call every day the small Deities. That’s the difference between how they worship and we worship. We will go to the details later. And when they finish the worship to them it’s just a piece of metal. Like us. We take our Deities rub them nicely and put them like in the bad and pillows and blankets and everything like and take them on the plane with us we will put them into a luggage. But they just take them when they finish they have done visarjan ask them to leave offer they obeisances and then pick them up; pink..., ponk..., tink,, You see it. I have heard it. I have been 30 feet away and you can hear the metal clanging onto the other. There is no cloth, nothing. They just drop them right in the box. As if it was just the metal. And the next day when they put them there and install them. Here is God. And they are 100% convinced here is God. And when they ask them to leave, then 100% piece of brass.

Q: is it bona fide—

BVPS: it’s one system of worship. But see in the Vaikuntha you can get away with that, because everything is just owe and reverence. See Vaikuntha separation is not important, it’s not a very..., it might be there, vbut they always are with the Lord, but directly. It’s a different flavour. So they are always with, that’s the inspiring thing. So therefore it’s always a festival. But directly a festival. But in Vrindavan it’s undestood that the separation is higher then union. So therefore the subtleties are more important. So in separation therefore you have what’s called udipana. Udipan means that you see something the color of Krsna. You see the trees and you think of Vrindavan. You see the river and you thing of Yamuna. anything like that. So therefore for us anything; when we see Nrsimha we see Krsna in Vrindavan, but He is in this form. Krsna dresses up. Just like sometimes Krsna dresses up as the brahman boy and comes there, because Jatila is looking for good pandit, to do sriya puja for her daughter in law. So then brahmana come, Madhumangala brings Him. Oh I find out the first class brahmana, he comes form this and that district and he is paka. Like that. He is very sober. Then they do the puja and all that. Jatila is very happy and Krsna is very happy. So He does these things. He dresses up and takes other mood and all this kind of stuff. So that’s just temporarily, but as Nrsimhadeva that’s permanent, but is still the same person. So you can see Krsna there. So for us we don’t do those things. We don’t do visarja. If it’s a situation in which is not good to stay we will say, you don’t have to stay any more, but we would never ask them to go. So they are on their own like they are sitting on their pot the program is over, 5 millions kids comes running in when they shouldn’t over throwing coconuts and takes on the movies heads, takes on Lord Sivas head and everything like that and they can figure out well is time to leave. So then they go. We don’t ask them. So it’s the different mood, bBecause of this aspect of vipralamba. They don’t have that. They have, but it’s like considered as a stage you go through. You go through the vipralambha and you come to this point you are always with the Lord. Then in Vaikuntha you are always with Him, but in Vrindavan even they are with Him, they are always afraid they got to lose Him. So therefore these subtleties are very very important. So that will make the differences how we approach Pancaratra and how the Vaikuntha vasis approach the Pancaratra. But the same principles you can see, like 16 items, it’s all the same. Once you understand that you can see how Sri do it, Madhvas do, smartas do, you know exactly whatr they are doing. May be you don’t know what mantra they are using, this and that, but you know what’s going on. You know what they are doing in the puja and things like that.

Q:You said that the form of the Lord is not different from Him. So even if they say that after they finish their puja so now you can leave, but the form is there that means the Lord is still there.

BVPS: They take it up with them. That’s not the point here. The Lord accepts the worship like that.

Q; So He doesn’t accepts it as a offense.

BVPS: No. But we wouldn’t do. You know it’s like a difference Lord is going and everyone is following Him. And everything and everything is big and elaborate. And everything like that. But when Krsna is going out to the forest and the gopis thinking He has the thorns in His feet and this and that. So everything is more subtle. There their Lord is everything, the Lord is everywhere. They install Him in the fire. They do the yajnas for Him. Worship Him in the Deity, worship Him like this. We don’t put Radha And krsna in the fire. They are too delicate. We put Laksmi Narayana in the fire and through them we see the Radha and Krsna and through them we worship. So we ask the fire you take this to offer to Them. So it’s just the metter of that fines, that subtelness. So that’s the whole thing. They may do, but we don’t do that. Just like you have Radharani and Her group of gopis. There is also so many other groups, she is one out of the 16108. Those are the main groups. She is the leader. So many others may be with others. They can do as part of the thing. Somebody has to be over there, but I won’t be over there. We offer all respect. Prabhupada in the Nectar of Devotion in the introduction, he offers respect to all those gopis there, most of those gopis are in oposing camps. BHadra and Saivya are just like Lalita and Visakha number two. They are her right and left hands. She is respected. But sometimes they will meet for particular purpose, cowherd boys are making trouble, some problems with the parents then they may work together. Once that over forget it.

Q:Why we see that generaly the rules are given for grihasthas.

BVPS: yes. that’s interesting. You have a books basicaly how to hold together grihasta community, manusamhita is that fat and most of it is how to hold that together. Hari Bhakti Vilas most of it is the rules for Grihastas. Mahvacarya writes the rules for sanyasi on half a page, because in the brahmacari asram in the sanyas asram, then there is not so many distractions. You keeping little, you are dealling with little so then there is very little rules on it. And then when you expand into the family then you dealling very directly with the material nature and you have to have more things how to deal with the details. In other words brahmacari and sanyasi are dealling with the principles. So principles are a few, but when you get into grihasta asram then you have to deal with the details. Just like you a making the menu that’s one thing, but when you are cooking then you have to do so many things you have to deal with. You have to deal with the fire, you have to deal with the pots, that the pots are clean then the spoons and knifes to cut the vegetable, so many more rules are there. In that all those more rulles are there to actually hold the whole grihasta asram together. The Prabhupada mentions that the whole complete form of the pancaratra is not important for the brahmacaris and sanyasis, but it’s a must for grihastas. Many times we see that it’s a kind of like left. Household says we don’t care we chant Hare Krsna we don’t care for the rules and brahmacari ends up as a pujari and this kind of things. But it should be actually other way arround. Brahmacaris will take part or if it’s like Nrsimhadeva then they will be more involved, but it’s specificaly meant for the grihastas. Because it gives the balance. You just taking a little prasadam, sleeping on the floor in some corner and chant a little Hare Krsna and go to the aratik and like that. Then you are living in your own house, fancy bad, eat your own food, having children and all that, then you have to balance that with much more intense coming, worshiping the Deities, touching the Deity, using a senses for a Deity. That will make some nice balance. Those rules brahmacari can follow. They are good rules. Everybody can follow and generall the Gaudiya vaisnavas they do. They may prety much follow they don’t make so much distinction in their culture. Also in the daivi varnasrama things can be ... the same culture. But those who follow ordinary varnasrama you see the complete differences. Snyasis they do one thing they will not do the other things. They will not touch fire, they will not cook, they won’t do yajnas, they won’t go to any certain places. They go to your hous they can go to your sitting room or puja room, but they will never go to your bed room. They will only go to certain houses. There is so many rules like that. They life is just different. But in the gaudiya tradition that’s a litle bit more fluent, though much is still followed. Of course one has to know to follow, if one doesn’t know, nobody knows, then it works OK.

Tomorrow we will go through these five. abhigamana.. Then we will go into the general discussion on it. And once the mood is understood, then we will go into the details. Go through each one of them.

(end of the day three)

Day Four. Tape Three.

The mood of the soul creates the body. Just like here. This body depending on the mood you can see it. You can see it on someone’s face, whether he is happy or angry. He is distressed or bewildered. Depending upon the mood it changes the form. How you move. If you are happy you move in one way and if you are upset you move in other way. Even the color changes, everything  changes. The whole idea is then there (in the spiritual world) because of their mood then it creates the body. Here we are limited to this one, but we can do adjustments with it. But there it just manifests in the particular way. It will be manifested according to this five rasas. And the culture is naturally there. One learns it from the others there, but it’s natural. It’s not that they have to teach you so many times. They just mention this and that and since you understand the mood  then you understand so much. If you understand the mood of something then you can understand so much details. If you don’t catch the mood then every detail has to be told. And even then kind around but not very efficiently. But when you catch the mood then you can apply it in the unlimited situations. In the Spiritual realm the most important is the mood. Because that’s the whole thing. Vrindavan has the mood. Mathura has a mood. Dvaraka has a mood. That’ what changes there. Otherwise the same Lord is there. Because the mood is different then they manifest the different forms. The Lords then reciprocates with them in those forms.  They are dressed as ksatriyas so He reciprocates, He is also dressed as ksatriya. They are cowherd boys and girls and He reciprocates. Now when we come to the material world, then the body and the soul are different. And the soul is covered by passion and ignorance. There is no natural affection for the Lord. And because we don’t have the mood and we start to serve the Lord then every detail has to be told. That’s why there is something bad in everything.

One must be then very strict. Practically everything you do they can go and tell you: „No, no, not like that. Not like this not like that.“ Very easy. Someone new comes then you can find something wrong in everything, because they don’t understand the mood. The whole idea is that the scriptures then give us that regulations on that culture, the activities to follow, which will fit with the mood and will be favorable for developing that mood. That give us the form, but the actual thing that develops the mood is not that you take three times a bath. Because when you take three times a bath that doesn’t develop the love of God. These rules are broken into two. It’s called *mukhya* and *gauna*. Mukhya means those things that actually themselves work. You do them now and you will do them later. Like chanting Hare Krsna. We chant Hare Krsna now and in spiritual world we will also chant. We associate with devotees here and we will associate there. We take prasadam and we’ll take prasadam. Whether you take three times a bath or whether you will put on tilak in this way or in another. Whether we wear the cloth we wear. That’s an another thing. But that creates the condition in which, means these gauna aspects creates the form in which the mukhya aspects can work very nicely. Because the spiritual world, the whole thing - relationships, is rasa. Rasa means culture. Rasa means exchange. Basically culture means how two people exchange, how group of people exchange, how larger group in different situations, that’s your culture. The whole thing is that these rules and regulations are coming through the media of culture. They are not coming on their own. It’s not dry. Smartas it’s dry. They take some aspects of the culture, but the part they like. And when comes to the worship then they just follows the rules. Tha’s why they are called the smarta. It just has to be done like this. They don’t know why, it just has to be done like this. Just like thy see some man carrying umbrella. Then they must always carry umbrella. No, he was carrying in the rainy season, because it may rain, but in another season he never carries it. But they only sees. No one must carry the umbrella. They don’t know why is he carrying. Just all they know is that he was carrying so we have to have that too. That’s the smarta. Then it is devoid of its culture, its variety. Thet’s why it’s dry.

Smartas are said to be dry. And mayavadis take the philosophy. The smartas are taking the karma and they don’t know why it becomes dry. And the mayavadis take the philosophy, but also make it dry, they don’t why. They leave the culture they leave the relationship with the Lord. Then when one gets here then one can easily get cought up, because one is either interested in the fruitive activities-karma or in jnana or if he wants something a little more subtle, a kind of mix of both then there is the yoga. Means karma you want things here. Then jnana you are not so much interested in here but in outside, but not in the spiritual realm, just within the brahman and yoga will be a kind in between. If you go into brahman you can go into mystic siddhis more subtle. Then when we look at the Deity worship we have to see it in the realtionship with its culture. When you understand the culture then everything becomes very easy. Then it’s very easy to understand why something is done and one can understand how to vary it. That’s the important thing. Because what I can teach you or tell you about is the principles what is going on and why it’s being applied. Because the situation is always going to be different. From one Temple to the next or different situations even in one Temple. Difference between the daily worship and festival. There are different kinds of festivals. Then there is always gona to be some difference. If you understand the principles then you can apply. That’s very very important. That’s why we are always keep going over these concepts.

Pancaratra is then divided into two main areas. nitya and naimitik. Nitya meaning what’s done as daily worship in the Temple or home and naimitik means what’s occasional. Naimitik is based on the nitya. Same things but just more elaborate. More or less elaborate depending upon what it is. In the nitya then you have five parts, also the other name for Pancaratrik system is Panca Anga Puja, means the five limb worship.